Rights For Minors

[Bizud]

I think that it's just a little bit sillier to suppose that all (or even most) parents are good parents who make decisions in their kids' best interests than it is to suppose that kids are capable of making their own decisions.

 

What kind of special knowledge do kids need to make decisions? You acquire knowledge and experience by making decisions and experiencing the consequences.

Edited October 14, 2007 by Bizud

[garsk]

I wonder, if I had instead asked the question "When you were a minor, did you ever drink or disobey your parents?" if the number of 'yes' answers would be higher.

yeah, it would have been, but it is a totally different subject matter then what you started. and looking how the voting has gone so far, the iron rule of "adults" will forever keep the "children" down!

[Spritzup]

So you're saying that an individual of 4 has the same knowledge and decision making capabilities that an individual of 25 has?

 

The role of parents (and society) is to guide, nurture, care, and educate the young. We see this in many species in the animal kingdom and humans are no different. If kids were allowed to run free without parents having some sort of say in the decision making process then you would have a society of regret.

 

Now, I would happily debate with you the idea of agism in our society, or when an individual should be considered an adult.

 

 

 

EDIT *Spelling*

Edited October 14, 2007 by Spritzup

[Bizud]

I never said parents shouldn't nurture, protect and educate young children. I did say that the state should not enforce parental coercion by making minors literally second class citizens (can't vote, drink, or make decisions legally), and that parents should encourage children to be involved in making decisions about their lives (like what school to attend, or whether or not to attend school, or whether to enroll in some kind of extracurricular activity or not), and that parents should not use physical force (violence) to coerce their children. Obviously there are exceptions - we talked about using physical force to stop someone from running out into traffic. The point is any authority, any coercion, must be justified - "I'm the adult and I said so" is not a justification, it isn't any better than "because I'm bigger than you."

 

A child of 4 surely doesn't have the same decision making capabilities as a person aged 25 does, but that's totally irrelevant - why shouldn't a 4 year old be able to decide whether he wants to go to pre-school or not, based on whatever he wants to base his decision on? "I like it" or "I don't like it" is enough! Similarly, I see no fault in not setting bedtimes for children - they will learn that they are responsible for their own sleep schedule.

[Azalroth]

I never said parents shouldn't nurture, protect and educate young children....

 

A child of 4 surely doesn't have the same decision making capabilities as a person aged 25 does, but that's totally irrelevant - why shouldn't a 4 year old be able to decide whether he wants to go to pre-school or not, based on whatever he wants to base his decision on? "I like it" or "I don't like it" is enough! Similarly, I see no fault in not setting bedtimes for children - they will learn that they are responsible for their own sleep schedule.

You didn't? To not educate your children in the fact that lack of sleep will harm your body and your growth? To not educate them in that school can be important (maybe not essential later on) in the future of your life?

 

Parents created what you are, physically, by procreating this entitles them to have some control of what is going on in your life in my opinion.

 

I mean, seriously Bizud, do you honestly believe that a 4 year old has any realistic idea of what a future without school will behold compared to a future with school? I don't know kids that well but I can honestly say that they don't know what they want to be when they grow up, realistically, and they certainly don't have the experience to justify their decisions based on..."I don't want to go to school" or "I hate school, I'm dropping out".

 

Physical abuse is not acceptable, fine we agree on that, but the guidance of a child is an important aspect of the human species, of most species in the natural order of things.

[Bizud]

You didn't? To not educate your children in the fact that lack of sleep will harm your body and your growth? To not educate them in that school can be important (maybe not essential later on) in the future of your life?

 

There are non-coercive ways to teach children about sleep. You don't have to regulate their sleeping patterns for them to do it. As for school, as I said, I think it's a draconian institution that no-one should have to attend. There are alternatives. I wouldn't want my kid anywhere near a school because I don't like anything about them, but if he wanted to attend one for whatever reason, I wouldn't stop him. This is a decision individuals can make for themselves.

 

Parents created what you are, physically, by procreating this entitles them to have some control of what is going on in your life in my opinion.

 

Now that is a notion I flat out reject.

 

I mean, seriously Bizud, do you honestly believe that a 4 year old has any realistic idea of what a future without school will behold compared to a future with school? I don't know kids that well but I can honestly say that they don't know what they want to be when they grow up, realistically, and they certainly don't have the experience to justify their decisions based on..."I don't want to go to school" or "I hate school, I'm dropping out".

 

Yes, I get this! I'm saying these are fine things to base that decision on! "I hate it" is definitely reason enough. Lots of people hate school because they are degraded, humiliated and controlled. And I think that can be considered a form of harm - it is injurious to the spirit. School is where people are trained to serve capitalism - learn to obey the arbitrary authority figure, do boring work that has nothing to do with your needs and interests, and the authority figure will be grading your performance. To reiterate, I would not want any kid of mine in one. Teachers would be contradicting everything the kid had learned at home anyway.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Bizud

[Muran]

Lots of people also hate school because they're lazy. Just because you say you hate something, doesn't mean it's for a smart, informed reason. Especially when you're a child.

 

Are you saying that if all your kid wanted to do is eat candy and watch TV, instead of going to school, you'd be down with that?

 

What's the point of parents at all, then?

[RicardoObviouso]

the crazy thing is, when bizud goes to run for political office, a bunch of former mg board members will come out in alliance and tell everyone that the fucker lived under the stairs for a bit and completely ruin his credibility.

 

 

seriously though. if you consider that the reason why children commit what society considers to be bad or wrong things is usually because their revolting against authority. try taking the authority away at an age where its deemed that its doing more bad than good. the worst it could possibly be is a social experiment in the evolution of adolescent behaviour.

 

this is the generation of entitlement. kids expect the roof over their heads, the k swiss shoes on their feet and money in their pocket all while expressing their expert opinions on why they should't have to go get a job at the mall. put them in an environment where they have to support themselves at a young age, and they'll have no time to fuck around.

 

30+ years ago, it was normal to have 3+ kids and a career job with a stay at home wife at an age most would consider today to be too young. kids were scared of being idiots. now you've got a higher cost of living, a higher "need" for "things" and in most cases both parents are working to provide the things in life that go above and beyond what most would consider necessary. so while all this money is coming in, and the kids are EXPECTING lined pockets, their off fucking around while mom and dad are at work trying to finance the trip to hawaii. priorities have changed, so everything else has to follow suit.

Edited October 16, 2007 by mr. smithee

[Bizud]

Lots of people also hate school because they're lazy. Just because you say you hate something, doesn't mean it's for a smart, informed reason. Especially when you're a child.

 

Are you saying that if all your kid wanted to do is eat candy and watch TV, instead of going to school, you'd be down with that?

 

What's the point of parents at all, then?

Nothing wrong with laziness. Sometime I'll extoll the virtues of laziness.

 

Anyway, you don't need to be smart or informed to know how you feel about something. How you feel is important - it's unhealthy, for the spirit and the body, to be subjected to something that makes you feel rotten on a regular basis.

 

As for television, nobody wants to do nothing but watch tv and eat candy - that just doesn't ever happen. But if that's how my kid wanted to spend a saturday, or a week, or however long, I'm not going to prevent it.

 

Taking Children Seriously

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_Children_Seriously

 

Taking Children Seriously, TCS, is a worldwide parenting movement and educational philosophy based upon the idea that it is possible and desirable to raise and educate children without either doing anything to them against their will, or making them do anything against their will.

 

It was founded in 1994 as an email mailing-list by the libertarians Sarah Fitz-Claridge and David Deutsch. [1]

 

The TCS model of parenting and education argues that most traditional interactions between adults and youth are based on coercion. TCS rejects this coercion as infringing on the will of the child, and also rejects parental or educator "self-sacrifice" as infringing on the will of the adult. TCS advocates that parents and children work to find a common preference, a solution all parties genuinely prefer to all other candidate solutions they can think of.[2]

 

 

 

the crazy thing is, when bizud goes to run for political office, a bunch of former mg board members will come out in alliance and tell everyone that the fucker lived under the stairs for a bit and completely ruin his credibility.

 

Not sure why that would discredit me, but I'd never even consider running for political office. I think we need to abolish political offices.

 

seriously though. if you consider that the reason why children commit what society considers to be bad or wrong things is usually because their revolting against authority. try taking the authority away at an age where its deemed that its doing more bad than good. the worst it could possibly be is a social experiment in the evolution of adolescent behaviour.

 

this is the generation of entitlement. kids expect the roof over their heads, the k swiss shoes on their feet and money in their pocket all while expressing their expert opinions on why they should't have to go get a job at the mall. put them in an environment where they have to support themselves at a young age, and they'll have no time to fuck around.

 

30+ years ago, it was normal to have 3+ kids and a career job with a stay at home wife at an age most would consider today to be too young. kids were scared of being idiots. now you've got a higher cost of living, a higher "need" for "things" and in most cases both parents are working to provide the things in life that go above and beyond what most would consider necessary. so while all this money is coming in, and the kids are EXPECTING lined pockets, their off fucking around while mom and dad are at work trying to finance the trip to hawaii. priorities have changed, so everything else has to follow suit.

 

I think all people, not just kids, should expect food and shelter and a whole host of other things without having to get a job, because I'm a communist and I think working for someone else is as degrading as being a student in a school. ;)

 

Ideally I'd like to see non-coercive (democratic) workplaces give people the opportunity to earn a living without having to sell their labour to a capitalist.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Bizud

[RicardoObviouso]

yep. you're still a fool.

[sodamntired]

communism totally works. look at Cuba. not a sad person on that whole island. everybody shares and lives like millionaires.

 

thank god i have a doctor that was smart enough not to have to go to school (prison) or anything.

[ToadMan]

Though this is a throughly interesting discourse, I think we have reached the point where your are engaging in attacks of a somewhat personal nature. If we could keep it reasonable.

 

Thanks

[C-Bacon]

Board is full of supremacists :/

 

Did you post this poll on any other forums, Bizud?

[Bizud]

Just this one actually.