Dr. Jordan Peterson

[Sly Botts]

Honestly, it's almost like the prof in question threw up his hands and surrendered to all of the helicopter parents he no doubt gets dozens of calls from a week. That's the real insidious part of this issue that is so often underreported or unmentioned. Helicopter parents are the worst development of the last 10 years. They expect 95+ on every assignment, but also want the kid to be stress free and for the marks to be assigned based on some sort of mythical grade scale they invent in their head because their kid is a perfect angel who always has perfect sentence structure, grammar, and ability. Anyways ... won't go too far down that rabbit hole. 

I strongly agree with you on this. Its created a huge problem with the kids now in University.  Helicopter parenting is reprehensible.   I'm being very blunt and simple here, but I don't want to go down the rabbit hole either.

[Moonlight_Graham]

I'd take that "stress reduction" class.  I could do ZERO work and get an A+.  Good job prof. :whistle: :whistle:

[Guest Idioteque]

I stumbled upon this article. http://nationalpost.com/news/world/the-new-taboo-more-people-regret-sex-change-and-want-to-detransition-surgeon-says

"The new taboo: More people regret sex change and want to ‘detransition:
surgeon says Dr. Miroslav Djordjevic says more people, particularly transgender women over 30, are asking for reversal surgery, yet their regrets remain taboo"

 

[Sly Botts]

I took the personality test from his website https://www.understandmyself.com.

My results:

Agreeableness: Very High 92nd Percentile
Compassion: Very High 95th Percentile
Politeness: Moderately High 76th Percentile

Conscientiousness: Exceptionally High 96th Percentile
Industriousness: High 82nd Percentile
Orderliness: Exceptionally High 98th Percentile

Extraversion: Exceptionally High 98th Percentile
Enthusiasm: Exceptionally High 97th Percentile
Assertiveness: Very High 90th Percentile

Neuroticism: Moderately High 72nd Percentile
Withdrawal: Typical or Average 47th Percentile
Volatility: High 86th Percentile

Openness to Experience: Typical or Average 53rd Percentile
Intellect (Not to be confused with IQ): Typical or Average
41st Percentile
Openness: Moderately High 63rd Percentile

[daniel_v]

While I don't have much to add to this thread, I mainly just wanted to say it's been a pleasure listening to an in depth and honest debate between people about Jordan Peterson. I still happen to agree with Sly Botts and Idioteque  wth regards to Dr. Peterson, but it's refreshing to read/listen to someone like AndyDanger85 intelligently discuss their issues with him rather than just resort to the usual angry hyperbole and straw man arguments his attackers usually resort to. 

If more people argued the way you do Andy I think Jordan would have a lot less support. In my opinion, one of the reasons so many people flock to his side is because they see his detractors act like this:

and then understandably become disgusted by their vehement and emotional vitriol. At least that's what happened with me, which then made me want to go see what the hell all the fuss was about. Which then led to me watching and reading a lot of his stuff and finding "most" of it- though not all mind you- to be fairly reasonable. That then led me to agree we are facing a fairly large shift of people to the far, far left (a position I believe is supported by a lot of other situations we've seen in North America in the last 5 or so years, including Yale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6ZVEVufWFI, Evergreen State College: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo-BGLoCDZU, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cMYfxOFBBM,  and Wilfred Laurier University: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/lindsay-shepherd-delivers-a-wake-up-call/article37033031/). That's not to say there hasn't been a shift to the far right either though (as has been documented with the mosque shooting in Quebec last year and the Charlottesville car rampage of last summer ) but again, that's also why I think Peterson is even more worthwhile in that he tries to pull the types of men prone to buying into that nonsense away from it, as can be seen here:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BoOdMx_zDU


And here: https://jordanbpeterson.com/psychology/on-the-so-called-jewish-question/


  Edited March 31, 2018 by daniel_v

[andydanger85]

While I don't have much to add to this thread, I mainly just wanted to say it's been a pleasure listening to an in depth and honest debate between people about Jordan Peterson. I still happen to agree with Sly Botts and Idioteque  wth regards to Dr. Peterson, but it's refreshing to read/listen to someone like AndyDanger85 intelligently discuss their issues with him rather than just resort to the usual angry hyperbole and straw man arguments his attackers usually resort to. 

 

If more people argued the way you do Andy I think Jordan would have a lot less support. In my opinion, one of the reasons so many people flock to his side is because they see his detractors act like this:

 

 

 

 

and then understandably become disgusted by their vehement and emotional vitriol. At least that's what happened with me, which then made me want to go see what the hell all the fuss was about. Which then led to me watching and reading a lot of his stuff and finding "most" of it- though not all mind you- to be fairly reasonable. That then led me to agree we are facing a fairly large shift of people to the far, far left (a position I believe is supported by a lot of other situations we've seen in North America in the last 5 or so years, including Yale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6ZVEVufWFI, Evergreen State College: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo-BGLoCDZU, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cMYfxOFBBM,  and Wilfred Laurier University: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/lindsay-shepherd-delivers-a-wake-up-call/article37033031/). That's not to say there hasn't been a shift to the far right either though (as has been documented with the mosque shooting in Quebec last year and the Charlottesville car rampage of last summer ) but again, that's also why I think Peterson is even more worthwhile in that he tries to pull the types of men prone to buying into that nonsense away from it, as can be seen here:

 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BoOdMx_zDU

 

 

And here: https://jordanbpeterson.com/psychology/on-the-so-called-jewish-question/

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Daniel. I try to make an effort to understand what people are saying because it leads to a more productive discussion. It is very important, and it is becoming a lost art.

 

I tend to agree that emotional vitriol makes things worse, though I will say that the shift towards the left is something that has been occurring for a lot longer than people think. This is due in large part to the fact that so many right-wing "intellectuals" have doubled down on morally indefensible positions, and this has increased in its' frequency and severity in the "post-fact" era. While there is an insistence upon identity politics among some circles on the left, I feel like it's less an insidious, watershed moment and more of an over-correction as the political pendulum swings. Much of the discussion on the right wing involves "culture war" type stuff, which is rooted in identity politics; white nationalism (also known by its' other name - racism), nativism, and a maddening sort of Christian oppression complex. Look no further than the comments on any boilerplate holiday greeting from Prime Minister Trudeau, and you see a chorus of reflexively angry Christians trying to mischaracterize his insistence upon gender equality and an attitude of acceptance towards refugees and immigrants as "hating white men" or Christians in general (nevermind the fact that he is baptized Catholic). 

 

An inordinate focus upon identity politics is certainly unhealthy, but at the same time, I think you'd have a lot less emotional, vitriolic left wingers if we stopped allowing bankrupt racial or sociological pseudo-philosophies to be characterized as the logical counterpoint to reasonable left-of centre argumentation. The false equivalence of ideological political discourse these days is as responsible for discord and deadlock as identity politics has been. In the spirit of intellectual fairness, we've allowed crackpots space to air their grievances openly by engaging with them seriously. This, even when they continue to promote bad-faith arguments about shooting-survivors-as-Nazis, the "deep state", school-shootings-as-false flag operations, suggesting that women who get abortions who should be hanged/lynched. Not one of these things is even remotely true or reasonable, or even worth debating. Ten years ago, we'd mock these folks as tinfoil-hat wearing extremists; they're mainstream now. They have TV shows on major news outlets and columns in respected periodicals. 

 

As for Peterson specifically, he has subsequently been censured by the University for reasons in line with the arguments I made previously in this thread:

 

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/after-misconduct-complaint-jordan-peterson-agrees-to-plan-for-clinical-improvement

 

As I said before, I do not necessarily think he is a bigot; just a terrible communicator. In the months since this discussion, too, I have amended my original views to include the fact that he should probably never say the words "cultural marxism" out loud again, lest he stumble through a meandering rant about how there should be warnings on course catalogs so that students can decide whether or not to take courses that might take certain viewpoints before they sign up. You know, and then failing to see the irony in being a champion of "free speech", but also being the guy talking about completely rejecting the particular school of thought he does not like. 

 

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/11/10/u-of-t-profs-proposed-website-would-target-professors-teaching-womens-and-ethnic-studies.html

 

Finally, with regards to the Lindsay Shepherd affair at Wilfrid Laurier. The whole thing was undoubtedly politically correct nonsense, however, I will note that Shepherd has greatly damaged her credibility subsequently by recording a Youtube video where she tries to defend "white nationalism" as distinct from white supremacy. She accuses "the Left" of trying to obfuscate the nuance between the two terms. Ironically, in trying to defend herself, her own hollow pseudo-intellectualism is laid bare: trying to defend the nuance between someone who believes that white people shouldn't mix with other races and someone who believes that the white "race" is superior IS actually really "scary" (her words, not mine). NEITHER concepts are worth serious intellectual consideration, because they're both based on vile, pseudoscientific beliefs about purity, conceptions of race and 19th century biological racism. 

 

EDIT: Forgot the link to the above Shepherd vid...

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by andydanger85

[Sly Botts]

I think the problem here is that many of these issues are nuanced which require nuanced approaches as people try to over simplify them.  You make good arguments here though but with all due respect, I don't agree with your theory that the rise of the left is due to "Right intellectuals" or the "Right".  This fight between Marxism and Capitalism has been going on for over a century now, and I think there really are more nuanced reasons for this than just right wing intellectuals doubling down.  Socially, it is undeniable that our society has *slowly* shifted left and I think personally, that there *is* a "Cultural Marxism" phenomenon out there.  I used to consider myself almost a socialist (left of centre).  I even voted NDP since I was 18.  However after coming to terms with things/values in my life and figuring out who I am and what I stand for, I had to admit to myself that Socialism was incompatible with my world view.  I think people are taught in various ways to hate conservatives, that in general, cons are "evil", "ignorant" or "bigoted" ect; you know the usual.  I discovered that this is incorrect.  Anyways I guess I don't really have anything useful to add to this discussion at this time so I'll just leave it at that.

[andydanger85]

On May 1, 2018 at 7:56 PM, Sly Botts said:

I think the problem here is that many of these issues are nuanced which require nuanced approaches as people try to over simplify them.  You make good arguments here though but with all due respect, I don't agree with your theory that the rise of the left is due to "Right intellectuals" or the "Right".  This fight between Marxism and Capitalism has been going on for over a century now, and I think there really are more nuanced reasons for this than just right wing intellectuals doubling down.  Socially, it is undeniable that our society has *slowly* shifted left and I think personally, that there *is* a "Cultural Marxism" phenomenon out there.  I used to consider myself almost a socialist (left of centre).  I even voted NDP since I was 18.  However after coming to terms with things/values in my life and figuring out who I am and what I stand for, I had to admit to myself that Socialism was incompatible with my world view.  I think people are taught in various ways to hate conservatives, that in general, cons are "evil", "ignorant" or "bigoted" ect; you know the usual.  I discovered that this is incorrect.  Anyways I guess I don't really have anything useful to add to this discussion at this time so I'll just leave it at that.

Yeah, but I didn't say that the rise of the left is due to "right intellectuals" or the "right".  I said that much of the vitriol is in reaction to really terrible, morally bankrupt arguments being made out there that aid and abet white nationalist agendas. When you say that socially, our society has shifted gradually left, I agree and that's something that I think we'd have to have a different, separate discussion about because it is so far removed from the current, polarized atmosphere. Sure, there's nuance to everyday political positions, but we employ the left/right dichotomy in every day parlance as a mode of convenient simplification. If you want to go that far down the philosophical rabbit hole, consider that there is no such thing as small government vs. large government; only differing interpretations of how the bureaucracy should allocate its' considerable girth and resources.

Cultural marxism is a lens. I teach English literature for a living, and it is one of several types of literary criticism out there. I don't say that cultural Marxism isn't a thing, just that it is misapplied by people like Peterson to impugn the humanities. Look further and you realize that there are also structuralists and feminists and Jungians/acolytes of the "archetype" theory of literature, there are psychoanalysts who use Freud's model of the unconscious mind as a lens through which we can criticize literature. Cultural Marxists seek to analyze works of art and look for power relationships; whether they be master-slave, male-female, employer-worker or any number of different dichotomies. So, I use this language every day, and I can tell you, that outside of certain on-campus stalwarts that make a career adhering to one school or another, the notion of cultural marxism is not this hegemonic force that Peterson makes it out to be. As with many subjects, Peterson speaks with authority on subjects he makes broad assumptions about that fit his narrow worldview. He roundly confuses criticism with censorship; that, by challenging his largely incomplete misinterpretations, we are telling him to shut up. The only expectation in my view that Peterson routinely fails to meet is to be able to elucidate his opinions in a way that is coherent. He is a terrible communicator, and again, I would hope that once his fifteen minutes is up, he goes back to teaching psychology - something he has background and authority in.

[IamNick]

my opinion of Jordan Peterson is almost entirely based on the following: http://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/canadaland-guide-jordan-b-peterson/

disclosure1: i don't always agree with Jesse Brown, i like that he stirs the shit though
disclosure2: i'm an optimistic nihilist, so at the end of the day i guess it doesn't really matter