The Last Jedi

[hoogie]

Just starting a thread so we can discuss the movie once people have seen it.

 

I saw it last night.  No spoilers here.  Very good movie.

[Guest Idioteque]

If in a week this isn't deemed the worst movie in Star Wars history then I've lost faith in humanity.

 

The theatre I was in walked out like car crash victims, there wasn't an applause or anything. This movie destroys everything before it, I would hope J.J Abrams can reshoot an entire film & end the trilogy with a hat-trick.

 

Rotten Tomatoes audience score is at a 56% & Mark Hamill didn't even like this script.

[hoogie]

There isn't a lot of love for this movie online.  

 

I was surprised with the direction they took with some stuff, but I liked it overall.  The tone was certainly different than the last few movies.

[Guest Idioteque]

Seems the movie tried being different for the sake of being different, the story did more harm than good to the Star Wars Universe. It also wrecks everything JJ tried building in Force Awakens.

 

It's a good sci-fi movie, terrible SW movie.

[HoboFactory]

I'd give it a C-. The story wasn't very compelling, but my biggest objection was that the it's basically a children's movie. While the original trilogy was mostly appropriate for kids it wasn't made for kids, this film definitely was. It almost felt like everything was dumbed down somehow, for example the heavy use of comic relief... which by the way, usually seemed entirely off-key. It just didn't feel like a Star Wars film. Pretty disappointed.

[andydanger85]

I quite enjoyed it. There was a lot to like in the film. I'm still unpacking my feelings with regards to the Luke storyline, but I think I am starting to be aware of the fact that I don't like the way that he was portrayed.

Luke is supposed to represent a certain ideal, and I don't feel like he would have made the decisions he made in the film (and in the thirty years between VI and VII/VIII) if the writing team/Johnson really understood the character. The direction they went in wasn't necessarily bad, but it just didn't feel right, either. I can't really speak in any more detail without going into spoiler territory, however. In a nutshell, I think I understand why Hamill didn't like the script, or more specifically, his own character arc.

Maybe we can make a Last Jedi thread that explicitly warns the poster before entering that spoilers shall be discussed ... just an idea. 

[hoogie]

I'd give it a C-. The story wasn't very compelling, but my biggest objection was that the it's basically a children's movie. While the original trilogy was mostly appropriate for kids it wasn't made for kids, this film definitely was. It almost felt like everything was dumbed down somehow, for example the heavy use of comic relief... which by the way, usually seemed entirely off-key. It just didn't feel like a Star Wars film. Pretty disappointed.

 

The humour and jokey aspect kind of threw me off.  I'm all for different tone compared to other movies in the series, and I find that people saying it's too different are probably the same people who complained that Force Awakens was a clone of A New Hope.

[HoboFactory]

Not in my case, I generally liked Force Awakens. I'd say to go from not being a kids' movie to being a kids' movie is enough of a change in tone to ruin it for me.

 

The original trilogy had artistic merit and there were grave doubts about whether the first film would even be a financial success. Some of the actors were convinced it would a footnote in film history that would likely go straight to television. This latest film just rides on the coat tails of Star Wars brand recognition and panders to a target market (for example the cutesy space penguins, the attempts at comedy, etc.)

 

Imagine if for some reason they made a Dark City 2 and it was now a slapstick comedy, that's kinda how this flick feels.

[Sly Botts]

There were so many problems with this movie. All I will comment on is the sea cow milking scene... that was it. OVER.  Horrible SJW infested film which ruined the SW universe.

[Crusader]

My major issue was with why they didn't just make a droid pilot the ship???

[andydanger85]

My major issue was with why they didn't just make a droid pilot the ship???

 

 

Holy shit. I hadn't thought of that. That makes so much sense.

[daniel_v]

SPOLIERS AHEAD

From what I've read online audiences have generally been divided. Personally, while there were some parts I didn't like (especially the Poe/Rose storyline and Fisher's Marry Poppin's space adventure, lol), what actually sold the movie for me, despite all the controversy, was the Mark Hamil/Luke story line. For my part, I appreciate movies that have characters who are realistic and while I understand a lot of people's anger towards Luke's development, I think those people had/have a fantasized version of who he was based on nostalgia and selective memory. Making him a flawed character was not, imo, out of line with his original character in the trilogy because he was never perfect to begin with. Yes, he achieved an amazing feat by turning Darth back towards the light, but even during his training on Dagobah Yoda discussed how he thought Luke was too undisciplined and unfit to become a jedi. Yes, he was full of optimism and brightness, but really, who isn't idealistic and hopeful when that young? It's not at all unrealistic for people to become jaded and disillusioned as a result of accidents and failures that occur in their lives as they grow older (especially given what Luke accidentally helped give rise to while trying to train Kylo and his other apprentices). By portraying this for a character as iconic as Luke, Johnson managed to make him more human/3 dimensional which made his redemption at the end that much more powerful, not to mention while focusing on a great theme that talks about how failure is the best teacher anyone can ever have. Lastly, that fight scene at the end between Luke and Kylo with the twist....one of the coolest things I have ever seen, lol. The way they had him move and not make a single offensive swing (intentionally, of course to make the twist that much better) was just great. Over all the fact that Hamil had disagreements with his character and yet still managed to do such an amazing acting job made it all the better.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbHUJEH-ERI

I also appreciated the Rey and Kylo story line. Despite Snoke's death being a little unsurprising as it got closer to the moment, the chemistry between them and the acting they did in their scenes together was great (not to mention Driver was fantastic in pretty much the entire movie). 

Edited February 5, 2018 by daniel_v

[andydanger85]

SPOLIERS AHEAD

 

From what I've read online audiences have generally been divided. Personally, while there were some parts I didn't like (especially the Poe/Rose storyline and Fisher's Marry Poppin's space adventure, lol), what actually sold the movie for me, despite all the controversy, was the Mark Hamil/Luke story line. For my part, I appreciate movies that have characters who are realistic and while I understand a lot of people's anger towards Luke's development, I think those people had/have a fantasized version of who he was based on nostalgia and selective memory. Making him a flawed character was not, imo, out of line with his original character in the trilogy because he was never perfect to begin with. Yes, he achieved an amazing feat by turning Darth back towards the light, but even during his training on Dagobah Yoda discussed how he thought Luke was too undisciplined and unfit to become a jedi. Yes, he was full of optimism and brightness, but really, who isn't idealistic and hopeful when that young? It's not at all unrealistic for people to become jaded and disillusioned as a result of accidents and failures that occur in their lives as they grow older (especially given what Luke accidentally helped give rise to while trying to train Kylo and his other apprentices). By portraying this for a character as iconic as Luke, Johnson managed to make him more human/3 dimensional which made his redemption at the end that much more powerful, not to mention while focusing on a great theme that talks about how failure is the best teacher anyone can ever have. Lastly, that fight scene at the end between Luke and Kylo with the twist....one of the coolest things I have ever seen, lol. The way they had him move and not make a single offensive swing (intentionally, of course to make the twist that much better) was just great. Over all the fact that Hamil had disagreements with his character and yet still managed to do such an amazing acting job made it all the better.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbHUJEH-ERI

 

I also appreciated the Rey and Kylo story line. Despite Snoke's death being a little unsurprising as it got closer to the moment, the chemistry between them and the acting they did in their scenes together was great (not to mention Driver was fantastic in pretty much the entire movie). 

 

 

My issue with it is not making him flawed or giving him less than enviable characteristics, it's doing so within reason and such that they haven't fundamentally misunderstood the character. When Obi Wan spent twenty years in the desert on Tattoine, he emerged strange, but hopeful. Yoda, same deal. I could have taken his jaded attitude ... his curmudgeonly rejection of the force ... but even thinking of killing a sleeping teenager? Bullshit. You change over the years, but who you are still the same KIND of person ... and making pretty much the whole new trilogy contingent upon Luke - even temporarily- being willing to commit murder is utter horse shit. 

 

Making the character three dimensional is admirable, as Luke was always a bit of a boy scout ... but this specific way shit the bed inestimably. 

[daniel_v]

My issue with it is not making him flawed or giving him less than enviable characteristics, it's doing so within reason and such that they haven't fundamentally misunderstood the character. When Obi Wan spent twenty years in the desert on Tattoine, he emerged strange, but hopeful. Yoda, same deal. I could have taken his jaded attitude ... his curmudgeonly rejection of the force ... but even thinking of killing a sleeping teenager? Bullshit. You change over the years, but who you are still the same KIND of person ... and making pretty much the whole new trilogy contingent upon Luke - even temporarily- being willing to commit murder is utter horse shit. 

 

Making the character three dimensional is admirable, as Luke was always a bit of a boy scout ... but this specific way shit the bed inestimably. 

Hahaha, I get where you're coming from man, and definitely appreciate the point that even when people change they're still sort of the same person. However, I'll still argue the idea that Luke would never even think about killing Kylo is based upon a lack of consideration from Luke's own history, and that based on your own reasoning what he considered/did (both in the short term and long term) is not out of line with the Luke everyone knew.

 

First off, we have to think about everything he saw, endured, and knew as a result of the actions of his father. Luke found his uncle and aunt killed by storm troopers loyal to Vader (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTKHZN8c2L8); he watched him strike down his greatest mentor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq51w34Hg9I); he lived through Vader's empire genociding his sister's entire fucking planet (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0qLzsIhUMk); he had to deal with him torturing Leia and Han (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5rqOIPIIXs), and then suffered his father chopping off his own bloody hand (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6sj89xgnl4). And that's not to even mention the slaughter of the younglings at the temple after receiving Order 66 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BN3921owBQ), the murder of dozens of rebel solders (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxL8bVJhXCM), or when he choked out his own wife (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjRHu5ysB94, an action that would ultimately cause her to not survive giving birth to Luke and Leia and leave them as orphans). Then there are all of these things (https://screenrant.com/star-wars-darth-vader-disturbing-acts/), though I don't know if a lot of those are cannon or not. 

 

Given all of the above, for Luke not to have even "considered" taking a route where the means justified the ends could have been argued as unrealistic because more than anyone else he knew what would happen if someone as powerful as Kylo turned down the same path as Vader (which he ultimately did). The fact the he considered doing it while Kylo was sleeping could either be considered as a show of how utterly terrified he was in that brief moment, or an act of mercy in that he didn't want him to suffer extra pain. 

 

Secondly though, you said it yourself- even if we change, we are still the same KIND of person (at least underneath all the walls and layers we put up) and what matters in the end the most is our actions, not our thoughts. Yes, he "very, very, briefly" (about less than a second and described as a passing gust of wind or something if I remember correctly) thought about going through with killing Kylo because he was terrified Kylo might go down the same path as his own father (something that ironically helped in part cause the very thing he was afraid of- which is another good theme to be explored regarding how fear sometimes causes exactly what it's trying to prevent, but I digress). The important thing that everyone seems to miss in this debate is that he didn't kill Kylo; he chose to spare him which is exactly what young Luke would have done, and that is the only thing that counts when it comes to his character. We all think about things that are wrong and screwed up at different points in our lives, but what matters is what we do, not what we think. In this case Luke unfortunately landed in a bizarre grey area very briefly between those two actions and, given the timing of when Kylo woke up, it didn't matter that he had already decided against it- all that mattered was Kylo thought he was going to kill him which is what led to him revolting/fleeing and thus helped lead to this new trilogy. To me that makes sense and is a realistic jump point to start the story again. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by daniel_v

[Moonlight_Graham]

My issue with it is not making him flawed or giving him less than enviable characteristics, it's doing so within reason and such that they haven't fundamentally misunderstood the character. When Obi Wan spent twenty years in the desert on Tattoine, he emerged strange, but hopeful. Yoda, same deal. I could have taken his jaded attitude ... his curmudgeonly rejection of the force ... but even thinking of killing a sleeping teenager? Bullshit. You change over the years, but who you are still the same KIND of person ... and making pretty much the whole new trilogy contingent upon Luke - even temporarily- being willing to commit murder is utter horse shit. 

 

Making the character three dimensional is admirable, as Luke was always a bit of a boy scout ... but this specific way shit the bed inestimably. 

 

I see what you're saying, but I think I feel the same as Daniel does.  Luke is on a different journey than Yoda or Ben, and obviously also didn't have nearly close to the same amount of Jedi training as Yoda & Obi-wan, who had decades to train & learn wisdom from many masters, while luke had a few sessions of actual training, so his wisdom won't quite be like Yoda or Obi-Wan.

 

Luke is also showing wisdom though by wanting the Jedi to end, he's doing it for GOOD.  He sees that Yoda and Obi-Wan were complete failures as teachers to Anakin, and their choice to train him, despite Yoda sensing "much fear" in young Anakin in Episode 1, led to the deaths of billions of people and untold suffering.  Luke didn't want that to happen again, and he saw that path happening again in Kylo. Luke said he looked inside Ben in that moment and saw great darkness, and visions of the future where "he would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he would become", which could have included visions of his Jedi training temple, the turning to the dark side of some of his students while killing the rest, Kylo helping create the First Order & destroying the New Republic & billions on the Republic capital (in Force Awakens), killing his best friend Han Solo etc. So essentially he's becoming the next Darth Vader so if in that one instant Luke feels a temptation to end all that suffering by killing Ben, well I think that's more than understandable. If any of us could kill Hitler in 1938 would that be evil to be tempted to do so, or even to do so?  I'm sure Luke did everything in his power to lead Ben to the light, but he failed, just like Yoda and Obi-Wan failed with Anakin, and it led to billions of deaths, why wouldn't Luke be tempted if just for an instant to prevent similar?

 

Luke was hopeful in the original trilogy, but he also had anger in him then too, he decapitated Vader in the cave vision on Dagobah, he showed anger fighting Vader in ESB and ROTJ even after becoming a Jedi, he cut off Vader's hand at the end of ROTJ in rage after Vader said he was going to turn his sister Leia.  Luke is a good person but not infallible or immune from all dark side temptations.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Moonlight_Graham