Citizens' power

[juanpe]

Do we citizens have the power? Can we really decide what happens in a country? Can our votes change the trend imposed in a country?

 

The answer - in my opinion - is YES... yes, we can change things, with our votes, with our opinions, we can change things... we are the ones who give politicians the right to rule us, and we are the ones who have the power to take it out of them

 

As an example for all those Americans who want to change the situation in their country and change the president who is ruling them (and the whole world, unfortunately), what happened in Spain some months ago: our ex-president supported Irak's invasion against 95% of the population, we didnt agree, we complained, we demonstrated... and some months later, in the elections, we took the power out of them and gave it to someone else, someone who had supported us in our complaints, in our oposition against the war.

 

Americans, with your votes, you can change the president in your country and save yourselves and save the world

[Moonlight_Graham]

you are from Madrid, Spain. How did the terrorist bombings there affect the election? i would like to know honestly.

[juanpe]

Election polls which were carried out before the terrorist attack already showed a trend that the government was gonna suffer some sorta a "punishment" for the support of Irak's war and some other domestic problems (an oil tanker which sank near spanish coasts, a militar plane which crashed when flying to Irak).

 

But obviously, what made many more people go to vote on March 14 (3 days after the attack) was not the attack, but the government lies: the previous government tried to blame the spanish terrorist group ETA of the terrorist attack, when most of the evidence and the international police and mass media blamed as something for sure Al Qaeda. The government was doing that because an ETA's terrorist attack would mean more votes for the conservative party (the government's party) and they knew that an Al Qaeda's attack would mean that we were getting what we "deserved" for supporting Irak's war, and obviously the government didnt want to admit that they had gotten involved in an illegal war against 95% of the spanish citizens.

 

People demonstrated against the government's lies, they were cheating us, they were not giving enough and correct information. It was unbelievable that we had to check international newspaper on the Internet to really know what was happening in Spain because the government was not informing the spanish society.

 

So, actually, it was not really the attack what made the government change: it was the government's treatment of the situation, the government's lies, the government's manipulation of everthing what made people go to vote "en masse".

 

The terrorist attack was obviously a proof that supporting an illegal war was not good and appropriate for such a country like Spain which has always been on the side of peace (again, i would like to remark that 95% of the population was against Irak's war), but I would also like to remark that the reason why we "defeated" the conservative party was not only because of the attack, but mainly because of the information manipulation and the lies they were telling us

[Moonlight_Graham]

well i sincerely hope your country is for the better now. From your accounts it didn't sound like a very good situation there, to say the least.

[juanpe]

no, it wasnt... it wasnt at all... the previous government had the mayority in the Parliament and they thought they were "God" and could do whatever they wanned, without citizens' opinion

 

i cannot be happier to have defeated that government, with my social movement, with my vote, with my political commitment and campaing, with my public denunciation... one of the best things i have ever done in my whole life and together with many many more people like me something to be proud of

[Moonlight_Graham]

no, it wasnt... it wasnt at all... the previous government had the mayority in the Parliament and they thought they were "God" and could do whatever they wanned, without citizens' opinion

That sounds a lot like Jean Chretien's Liberal Party to me.

[juanpe]

that's the Liberal Party in Canada? Sorry about my ignorance on canadian politics...

[no yu begin wher i end]

Chretien's Liberals may have been arrogant, but they weren't the Conservative jackasses that hold office in America.

[juanpe]

what did that canadian liberal party do, then?

[Crusader]

Chretien didn't really do anything bad. He was pretty much like Trudeau and was basically a good guy. The only bad Liberal I can think of at the moment is Gordon Campbell (?). He sold off our ferries, railroad, and many more things to come.

[juanpe]

did the have the mayority of the Parliament? Did they "abuse" of that situation to pass laws, sell all public companies (as the spanish government did), and things like that?

[Crusader]

Well Chretien didn't abuse anything per se but Cambell (the premier of our province) is trying to sell off the public companies. Our current Prime Minister (Paul Martin) seems to want to privatize (spelling?) health care.

[juanpe]

exactly what i said in another post: that's what the previous government tried to do: privatize (spelling: right) public healtcare, but with the new socialist government that has been stopped

[no yu begin wher i end]

did the have the mayority of the Parliament? Did they "abuse" of that situation to pass laws, sell all public companies (as the spanish government did), and things like that?

Chretien's Liberals had the majority of Parliament for all 3 of his terms. The first time they left the incumbent Conservative Party with only 2 seats. I really don't think that most leftwing governments would ever privatize state-run companies (although I think BC Ferries used to be publicly owned). Manitoba Hydro and MTS were both privatized under Manitoba's previous Conservative leadership.

 

I know that a lot of the recent Liberal and NDP governments have come under a lot of flak for not being able to lower taxes or cut GST, but that's mainly because of the deficit left to them by the previous government. In Ontario, Ernie Eves' Conservative government hid a multi-billion dollar deficit from the Liberal Dalton McGuinty, who promised to cut taxes, but when he won and had an audit done on Ontario's finances, that's when he discovered the huge debt, and therefore can't cut taxes.

 

It's the same story here in Manitoba. Our NDP premier Gary Doer came into office unknowingly facing another huge debt left to him by Gary Filmon, the incumbent Conservative.

 

Then in 1993 when Chretien won the federal election, he wanted to cut our GST introduced by the Brian Mulrooney Conservatives but couldn't because of the massive debt they left.

 

True, there's bad eggs in every government, but Chretien's Liberals had some stars. Pierre Pettigrew was an excellent Minister of Industry, and helped defeat unfair tariffs imposed on Canadian wheat and softwood lumber by the US. Lloyd Axworthy was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize in 1996 for putting forth the Ottawa Treaty, banning landmines. For his efforts in establishing the International Criminal Court and the Protocol on child soldiers, he received the North-South Institute's Peace Award. When Paul Martin was Finance Minister, even though I now consider him a vindictive prick (what he did to Sheila Copps was despicable), he managed to erase the national debt and get us into a surplus.

 

Under the Liberal leadership, Canada managed to remain together by keeping Quebec in Confederation. They're working on the advancement of gay rights and education (they want at least 50% of all high school graduates to be fully bilingual).

 

That all said, I truly think that there's a difference between having a large majority government and a corrupt one.

[juanpe]

Derek, thanx a lot for all that info on canadian politics... i didnt know anything about it

 

and I don't think either that most leftwing governments would ever privatize state-run companies... at least, in Spain that is one of the main differences between the previous government (rightwing) and the current one (leftwing): the previous government tried (and could carry it out because they had the mayority at the Parliament) privatize most of the state-run companies... some of them couldnt be privatized and the "operation" has been stopped by the new leftwing government

[Moonlight_Graham]

I know that a lot of the recent Liberal and NDP governments have come under a lot of flak for not being able to lower taxes or cut GST, but that's mainly because of the deficit left to them by the previous government. In Ontario, Ernie Eves' Conservative government hid a multi-billion dollar deficit from the Liberal Dalton McGuinty, who promised to cut taxes, but when he won and had an audit done on Ontario's finances, that's when he discovered the huge debt, and therefore can't cut taxes.

Actually McGuinty said he would "not cut taxes, but not raise them either". woops.

 

Then in 1993 when Chretien won the federal election, he wanted to cut our GST introduced by the Brian Mulrooney Conservatives but couldn't because of the massive debt they left.

Actually Pierre Trudeau was the Prime Minister who left Canada with the massive national debt. While Trudeau was PM, Canada's debt rose by 1,200 per cent, from $17 billion to over $200 billion. Because of Trudeau's socialist spending, Canada then had to run deficits and borrow money, which balooned Canada's national debt to over 500 million.

 

Its was then that Mulroney (yuck) introduced the GST to try and reduce the deficit/debt.

 

When Paul Martin was Finance Minister, even though I now consider him a vindictive prick (what he did to Sheila Copps was despicable), he managed to erase the national debt and get us into a surplus.

actually Martin erased Canada's deficit, which was 42 billion, not our national debt...which still remains over 500 billion dollars. (Merci Trudeau)

 

Chretien didn't really do anything bad. He was pretty much like Trudeau and was basically a good guy.

Chretien didn't do anything bad? Have you been reading the freakin' newspaper over the last 5+ years? He's an arrogant, corrupt, lying sack of shit.

[no yu begin wher i end]

Well, hopefully you can see the point I'm trying to make. I was reading some rightwing blogs and they were ridiculing Chretien for not getting rid of the GST. I stand corrected on the whole Mulroney thing.

 

On McGuinty, again, thanks for correcting me. Again, I hope you can see my point, where he has to mess around with taxes to fix the financial system somewhat.

[juanpe]

an interesting article about citizens controling their own lifes:

 

http://www.progress.org/2003/vermont1.htm

[Moonlight_Graham]

Well, hopefully you can see the point I'm trying to make. I was reading some rightwing blogs and they were ridiculing Chretien for not getting rid of the GST. I stand corrected on the whole Mulroney thing.

 

On McGuinty, again, thanks for correcting me. Again, I hope you can see my point, where he has to mess around with taxes to fix the financial system somewhat.

the reason anyone (including right-wingers) would ridicule Chretien for not getting rid of the GST is because it was a large election promise that Chretien made during his first campaign to be PM back in 1992(?).

 

But in reality, yeah its probably not wise to get rid of the GST anytime soon. It will be us, our children, and our grandchildren who will be the ones paying ever-increasing taxes to erase the debts our parents generation left us with.

 

...Add that to the fact that the same baby-boomer generation is getting older so we'll be paying ever-increasing taxes to take care of their healthcare. dang taxes!! ;)

[no yu begin wher i end]

...Add that to the fact that the same baby-boomer generation is getting older so we'll be paying ever-increasing taxes to take care of their healthcare. dang taxes!! :angry:

We need another Vietnam! That'll thin their ranks a little ;)