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I larve Goth music. Why? It's mostly pretty fun (The Vampire - Voltaire), some are incredibly sexy (Kiss - London After Midnight), and some are just plain awesome (Paint It Black - Inkubus Sukkubus).


What thinketh thou?

Edited by miss_fortune
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The lyrics are pretty suited to the goth style though.


Take for example "Heirate Mich" (Marry Me)


You see him creeping around the church

he has been alone for a year

The sadness took away all of his senses

he sleeps every night by her grave


There, by the bells sleeps a stone

and I alone can read it

and on the fence, the red rooster

who was your heart at that time


The fear has been skewered on this fence

I now go digging every night

to see what still remains

of the face that smiled for me


There by the bells I spend the night

there between snails, a lonely animal

during the day I run after the night

you escape me for the second time


Marry me


with my hands I dig deep

to find what I missed so much

and under the moon in its most beautiful dress

I have kissed your cold mouth


I take you tenderly by the arm

but your skin rips like paper

and parts fall off of you

you escape me for the second time


Marry me


So I take what still remains

the night is hot and we are naked

according to the curse the rooster greets the morning

so I hacked off his head

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I don't think it's gothic in the traditional metal sense, but Nick Cave has some pretty dark stuff. He's for people who don't think that Leonard Cohen is somber enough.

I love his song on the Shrek 2 soundtrack.



You know, People Ain't No Good. It's an awesome song.

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Being the resident goth music fanatic. I'll compile a list of do's (namely cds I have and bands I love) and don'ts (namely nu-metal and other crap)....


DO: Joy Division, The Cure, Assemblage23, This Mortal Coil, Bauhaus, Black Tape For A Blue Girl, Legendary Pink Dots, Apoptygma Berzerk, Type O Negative...even things like Cradle of Filth, NIN, Manson (it is allowed...), VNV Nation or Velvet Acid Christ...)


DON'T: Disturbed, KoRn, Orgy, Rammstein (unless you're 15 and still think that cliched angry Germans are cool), HIM, AFI, etc.

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Overall, I don't listen to all that many goth bands, they can have a good sound sometimes, but on the whole, they're all just angsty whiners. So in fact when it comes to Rammstein, they're probably more mature than you make them out to be, Aaron. If you hear enough of their music (as in NOT the songs that they're known for in America, like Du Hast, Ich Will, or Feuer Frei), there's alot more to it than just being angry. For me the appeal is not only in the lyrics, which can actually be pretty poetic and soulful (songs like Alter Mann, or Nebel that most people who've heard of Rammstein in the states have never heard). The music itself is both very mechanical and powerful but still carries a sort of natural feel.

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Well, Pavel, being in 4 bands, and working in music stores for the past 5 years, I'd wager that I know more about Rammstein than the average listener. As for the 4 main albums, namely herzeleid, sehnsucht, live aus berlin, and mutter....their sound does not develop. A band must strive to maintain a core theme and meaning while ever-changing not to keep 'current' but to show various facets of the message that is being given.


Rammstein fails to change enough from album to album. Marilyn Manson achieved this with his triptych...completely different themes with a recurring storyline under all 3 albums. Even Madonna in all her pompous glory changes her theme while maintaining a central theme of decadence, lust, etc.


However, the gothic culture of music...namely the REAL stuff...Joy Division, Bauhaus, The Cure...not HIM or AFI...the theme of "angst" as you put it, is somewhat incorrect. The term of teen angst is an oxymoron. I feel that only adults know true angst. There's a great difference between 'whining' and seeing the world from a different perspective than the "all is well" commercial view on this planet that people would want you to see it as...being a Matt Good fan, I am somewhat baffled that a fan cannot see the world for how it really is instead of following a band that relies heavily on an aspect of foreign cultures being 'different' and a stage show that is nothing more than pyrotechnics and 808 rhythms that are HEAVILY influenced by bands like Funker Vogt and Einstuerzende Neubauten, who in turn claim that Joy Division is a main influence.


Thank you...end of rant.

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Live Aus Berlin isn't actually an album, it's just a live performance of the first 2 ablums so that wouldn't even count when trying to determine development. If you listen to Herzeleid compared to Mutter, there is definte change and development, Herzeleid has much rougher and harder sound, Mutter has more more emphasis on things like female vocals, orchestral elements, and so forth.


I never said teen angst, just angst in general. Call it what you want, it is whining because it's all been heard before and it's not like they have any grounds to complain, life is good for people like Manson, they got alotta money, women and so on. Like they ever give a damn that their parents don't understand them, they don't believe in "family values," or they can't find purpose in life.


Rammstein I don't think relies on being seen as foreign for their success. They're Germans so they sing in German, it just makes sense. If they really wanted massive commercial success they may as well have been better off starting in English so as to appeal to the English speaking crowd which has the most influence oh who listens to what around the world.


The pyrotechnics they use are to really make it a show rather than just stand there in front of people playing music, everyone does that, they just needed something else, to set them apart. If you've seen any of the more recent concerts (stuff from the Mutter album)...they've for the most part toned down alot of the pyrotechnics because they're not as necessary. Take for example the 2001 Velodrome concert in Berlin, aside from a couple of small fireworks type things, there was almost no pyrotechnic effects.


They also do in fact have a central theme which is basically just anything western culture regards as taboo. The thing is when it comes to things like rape, child abuse, etc, the world doesn't like thinking about those things as a whole, it's seen as something to "sweep under the rug." So Rammstein acts contrary to that and basically throws it into everyones face. Sorta showing the world it's ugly side that it doens't like seeing in itself.

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Some interesting points, and some untruths.


First, for many artists, as well as myself and others who agree...having money isn't the first sign of success. While you may feel this to be a strong front runner, I cannot. Britney Spears has a ton of cash, so it means nothing artistically......which brings me to my point. The fact that a band becomes successful and they, or him/her, are unhappy with certain things i.e. Manson, Robert Smith, Ian Curtis, etc. is a moot point. As far as I can remember, from reading his interviews, seeing him live, reading his lyrics, or even hanging out with him, Marilyn Manson never had, or claimed to have, a problem with his "parents understanding him"...but anyways. The fact that someone as 'depressing' and 'mopey' as Marilyn Manson are successful is that they are doing their part to show...as you put it "the world it's ugly side that it doens't like seeing in itself." Hence, MM's lyric "i am your shit...you should be ashamed of what you have eaten"...Manson's born and bred American, and it shows.


Secondly, I am aware that Live aus Berlin was a live album...but as for your quote of gothic rock all 'being done before', let me list off the bands that were doing what Rammstein shamelessly lends for themselves...long before they were around.


Throbbing Gristle

Cabaret Voltaire

Einstuerzende Naubauten

VNV Nation

Skinny Puppy

Christian Lunch



I could go on disproving the bash at gothic rock as being the only genre that has been 'all done before'...but I'll fall asleep before listing off the bands that were Rammstein before Rammstein was Rammstein.


Lastly, you say that if Rammstein wants commercial success stateside, they'd just record in English....well if I'm reading correctly, I can get Du Hast and a whole slew of other tracks of theirs.......recorded in plain english. Shame Rammstein......shame indeed.



end of rant.

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You can't hold it against a band for having influences. I mean are you to argue that Marilyn Manson for example is completely original in every way??


Those other bands that were "doing it all before Rammstein" never really caught on for the most part, and there's a reason for that.


A whole slew of English songs?? Du Hast and Engel are the only 2 songs for which there are English versions, while they did do a couple of other songs in English (that never made it onto albums), atlthough, there were covers ( e.g. "Stripped" by Depeche Mode) or tributes, such as their rendition of "Pet Cemetary" in honor of the departed Joey Ramone. Their first album, had no English songs and no English versions were ever made of any of them. The English songs (both from Sehnsucht which was their 2nd album but the 1st album that attained any popularity in the states) are just recognition of the fact that they do have large English-speaking fanbase and that these fans aren't ignored. They've done a few songs in Russian as well. If they speak the language, why not sing in it?? They've also cooperated with English-speaking artists (including Manson), but that is not all that significant.

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Well, saying that Rammstein records in english can be viewed 2 ways....selling out commercially, or to not ignore their english speaking fans. Just as gothic rock being occasionally dismal and bleak can be viewed 2 ways...that some will think its "whiny" and some will see it as an artist not doing something for the commercial aspect of it, but it's because it's what they believe.


In addition, the fact that in your opinion the aforementioned bands "never caught on" is just a term that I hear from the common listener....if it's not on MuchMusic, or on the radio, then I've never heard of it...they must've not caught on.


It's a shame that there's so few of us that see good music for good music...not just because it "caught on".

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Good point about the not catching on, I guess it applies to Matt Good who is far from being big (whenever I tell people I listen to Matthew Good Band, the typical response is, "don't you mean the Dave Matthews Band")


...but I've just realized that this is whole thing has probably been over-analyzed.


I'm not in fact terribly concerned with the origins of the music or anything of the nature; with Rammstein, I like the sound and the lyrics. I think there's more to it than just being angry Germans.


With Manson I don't like the music so much (some is ok I must admit) but alot of the points he makes in his music are valid. If he doesnt already without me being aware of it, he should write books, from interviews I've seen of him, he's pretty intelligent. The thing about him that really gets to me is that "satan" thing. I dunno if he's satanic or whatever, but alot of his fans, at least the ones that I know, think of him as this evil icon and they think they're so badass because they write '666' on themselves with dry-erase markers and crap like that. I've always thought that to be really stupid. So in a sense, it's probably his fans that sully my image of him.

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Ok, well I admit, i wasnt paying attention, so heres my two cents on all that seems to have been discussed here:

I dont identify myself as a goth for two basic reasons the most important being that i do not listen to or like any goth music (manson, nin and the cure are excluded from that) Secondly In my opinion I dont dress in proper gothic garb, In any sense, i kinda go in between from punk, to goth, to rocker, then to hippie and back again.

However I apparently am goth because like most goths, I dont like other goths, but i think im the rare sense that even denies being goth. But I must admit that like a lot of them I am a narcissist and an elitist. The way i look at it, I just have standards.

As far as the manson satanism thing goes, I will be the first to wholly side with people that are irritated with little mansonites running around throwing the triple 6's on them wherever they please. It is retarded and has nothing to do with satanism.

Since Ive been a practicing satanist for 7 years, i can safely say that a good lot of them are fuck tards and are using manson along with a host of other things to stand out and piss off mommy and daddy.

Manson took Anton Laveys ordainment as a reverend in the CoS out of respect, and not so much because he wanted it.

But really looking around these days, a lot of people look like satanists to me.

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