Covid vaccines

[foats]

Curious how this is working in Canada currently.  I received a text from my boss that they were giving out vaccines at the Dick's Sporting Good's headquarters.  I signed up Tuesday and got the first shot yesterday.  The nurse told me they did 4000 shots yesterday. Kind of nervous based off of media and hear say  but my dad is getting open heart surgery in 2 weeks and I wanted to see him when he is home resting. I figured if I get fully vaccinated it would lower his risk. 

My arm was a bit sore after a couple hours but no sickness or anything else and I went right back to the office after.   Interested to hear your opinions on the vaccines and whether you would or are getting the shots.

[foats]

I am now fully vaccinated. Haven't been radiating 5G off my body, nor do I feel or look like a zombie.   The 2nd shot did make me feel like I drank a bottle of Nyquil  but it was worth it.  Hoping everyone is keeping safe. 

[PlasticSoldier]

i got my first one a few weeks ago. my arm was sore the next day, but that's pretty typical of any vaccine. otherwise nothing different.

my next one is supposed to be in august, we have a weird way of doing it...

[Crusader]

Still waiting to get mine but both of my parents are vaccinated now at least. From the people I know who got the Pfizer vaccine, seems like mild headaches are the only symptom people are getting.

Not too happy about the 4 month delay between doses though. Canada really needs to spin up its own vaccine manufacturing again, hopefully this will encourage that.

[daniel_v]

4 hours ago, Crusader said:

Still waiting to get mine but both of my parents are vaccinated now at least. From the people I know who got the Pfizer vaccine, seems like mild headaches are the only symptom people are getting.

Not too happy about the 4 month delay between doses though. Canada really needs to spin up its own vaccine manufacturing again, hopefully this will encourage that.

The wait between vaccine times is troubling. Recently a  virologist named Dr. Geert Vaden Bossche came out warning that he doesn't believe we should be vaccinating people in the middle of a pandemic because of the risk for existing variants to mutate into something that could kill far, far more people than are dying right now. Even those who disagree with him on his position of stopping vaccines agree that a slow roll out of the vaccine could lead to something resembling what he is talking about. Those two views considered, given that the manufacturers of the mRNA vaccines recommended only 3 to 4 weeks between doses, I think there is an argument to be made that the feds are acting quite dangerously with their decision to accept the NACI's 4 month wait period idea.  Don't get me wrong, I understand that our government wants to get as many people as possible their first doses to try and drop hospitalizations in the short term, but in the long term, again, for the reasons listed above, that position could be really scary in the future. 

With regards to receiving the vaccine personally, it took me a while to decide on getting it. I eventually (and reluctantly) did get my first dose just this past Saturday (because I am constantly interacting with a wide variety of people at work and because I worry about what Dr. Bossche and Damania have discussed), but I don't blame people who are hesitant at all. The number of different outlooks on where the virus came from(zoonosis/the wet market in Wuhan vs. the lab leak/gain of function hypothesis), the world's response to it (E.G- debating the efficacy of lockdown and the cost/reward ratio they entail), and what should be done going forwards, provides an unreal amount qualitative and quantitative data to consider, and that applies to the vaccines as well (especially given the different kinds there are and understanding the histories of the companies who have created them). To that end, I ended up doing a lot of thinking (probably more than I should have) before I received mine. 

Understanding Hesitancy

First off, there is the core issue of trust. To be specific, some of the companies making the vaccines do not by any means have the cleanest track record. Johnson and Johnson, for example, have been sued hundreds of millions of dollars in the past for their role in the opioid crisis that has claimed hundreds of thousands of lives in North America. Then there is Pfizer, who has paid out over 1.2 billion dollars in thousands of different settlements for their creation and marketing of the drug Prempro. That drug was eventually found to cause breast cancer in women. So obviously they don’t have the greatest track record in being open and transparent about side effects that occur in their products. Even now there are reports coming out about possible links between the Pfizer vaccine and short term paralysis in certain people (though whether this was the result of the vaccine or unrelated medical conditions remains unclear given that correlation does not by any means always equal causation). Either way, I think a lot of people understandably think to themselves that if these companies are so interested in profits that they ignored and obfuscated such data (both in the past and present), there is then that much less reason to assume they have created a safe vaccine as opposed to a rushed one. Granted mRNA vaccines have been in the works for many decades, but their implementation is still of course incredibly new. Hence why I don't blame people for being cautious about which company they want to receive one from either. 

Likewise, there is the linked issue that a large portion of the funding that the FDA receives bizarrely enough actually comes from the industry players that they are supposed to be regulating. As such, even though the FDA has approved  all 4 major vaccines(through Emergency Use Authorization) that are being shared all over the continent, there is an understandable question that people have regarding whether the they can trust the FDA given the conflict of interest that exists between approving vaccines created by companies that supply such a large portion of their operating budget in the first place. 

Then there is the even more frightening idea being put forwards by alarmists in some circles that these companies, in collusion with governments around the world, are literally trying to depopulate the earth by poisoning people with what is only being marketed as a vaccine. Normally I would dismiss this kind of talk, but given that some of it is coming from someone (Dr. Mike Yeadon) who used to work for Pfizer for over 16 years, it did stop me in my tracks for a bit because I am not educated enough to analyze whether what he is saying about the genetic sequences of the variants is valid or invalid.

However, while all of the above is understandably worrisome and emotion inducing, I do think it all can be put into context and dismissed by getting a wider viewpoint from others doctors, scientists, virologists, and epidemiologists (and just through common sense). 

The Case for Vaccines

All of the above considered, I think the core issue around choosing to get a vaccine has to do with trust though education, understanding the strange link between intelligence and paranoia, looking at legitimate fears around hospital capacities, and a longing to have things return to normal (because normalcy would obviously benefit everyone). Indeed, as much understandable fear exists around this topic, I think that fear also blinds people to the wider picture (even intelligent people). Likewise, I do think the simplistic way in which the internet and social media allows half truths, along with lies, to be shared amongst people who lack a full education in certain issues (myself included), creates cognitive distortions around what is and isn't accurate (for example, the idea that lock downs are an attempt to slowly engender us into slave like conditions, despite the fact that regular, mass protests are still allowed without arrests here in Canada).

With regards to intelligence and paranoia, I think many people assume if someone is intelligent they won't get paranoid. In my opinion this is a very large misunderstanding of paranoia. After all, the former scientist from Pfizer that I referenced above (the one who thinks his former company- along with the rest of big pharma- is trying to depopulate the earth by 95 percent) is obviously an incredibly well educated and intelligent individual based on his experience and way of explaining things. Likewise, it is beyond my education to analyze or discredit his opinions around why the virus variants shouldn't be of any concern to anyone (on account of their genetic sequences only apparently being .3 percent different at most). However, if one looks at his larger claim logically (the one that argues big pharma is trying to depopulate the earth) it simply doesn't make any sense. Indeed, it is is exactly because of their greed that it doesn't make any sense that they would want to kill off 95 percent of their potential customer base. They exist to perpetually make money. No self serving company is going to literally kill the majority of people who exist to make that profit possible. Further more, Dr. Zubin Damania did a good breakdown and discrediting of some of Dr. Yeadon's former claims that seemed rational on the surface as well (such as the idea that the vaccines could cause female sterility).  As such, it occurs to me that more researched and educated people than myself could probably debunk his position on the variants not being harmful as well. As such, I don't believe that Dr. Yeadon is lying about his opinions- I simply believe that he has allowed his paranoia (centered in his amygdala) to over take the logic processing part of his brain (his pre-frontal cortex) and it is not irregular for intelligent people to be overtaken by their emotions. 

From there, on the the issue of hospital capacities and variants, I do think it is worthwhile to return to the topic I mentioned about the virologist who is warning about how deadly the variants could be due to the selective evolutionary pressure the vaccine could put on the viruses to mutate even further. Indeed, we're already seeing ICU's being loaded with younger people in North America and in different parts of world. To that end, I think the question becomes "Is some protection better than none if these variants are going to become more common, transmissible, and deadly?" Likewise, an even more simple question is whether or not the possible unknown, long term side effects of the vaccines could be worse than the effects of actually getting the virus itself? After all, many countries are now seeing younger people being hospitalized (https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/12/health/b117-covid-variant-young-patients/index.html) and many others have seen their health care capacity decimated by this virus (Italy, for example) and others are on the brink of that happening as well today (see Chile).

In relation to the idea that people can't trust big pharma to be transparent about the side effects of their products, while I do absolutely agree with that hesitancy due to past transgressions- and think that any possible short term/long term side effects should be examined and studied immediately as they come up-  a doctor from the U.K made a good compilation of videos attempting to dispel what he believes were/are common misperceptions around mRNA vaccines here. Whether one agrees with his points is up to them and their own knowledge of what points he is addressing (since there are many). To one of his points as well, given that phase 1, 2, 3 trials were all done for all of the vaccines, any major side effects of common concern should have come up during that time period. Also, again, the amount of research done on mRNA vaccines really is quite comprehensive. 

Anyways, perhaps a good place to finish is to return to what we were taking about at the top- wait times and variant escape, because that is mainly what contributed to my decision to get vaccinated.  Again there is a debate between Dr. Geert Vaden Bosshe and others in the medical community around whether or not vaccinating people in the middle of the pandemic could lead to vaccine resistant variants killing hundreds of millions (if not billions) of people. To that end, I think Dr. Zubin Damania made a good counter to Dr. Bossche by noting that is why we want to get as many people vaccinated as soon as possible- because the sooner it happens the less chance there will be variant escape. Likewise, if these variants to do become as horrible as Dr. Bossche is suggesting they could become, I would rather have some protection from a ramped up immune system as opposed to just facing them alone with my regular immune system that has never encountered any version of the Sars Cov 2 Virus. 

Final Thoughts

Now, is it possible I and all the other promoters of vaccines are wrong about all of this? Of course. No one is psychic or omniscient and there is a crap load of data to consider. But, all of the above considered is why I decided to get vaccinated myself (regardless of whether it turns out to be a good or bad idea in the long run). I decided to share all of this because it occurs to me that if I was having these thoughts and debates with myself then most likely many others who are stuck in the middle still are as well. 

To that end, thanks for posting this topic @foats It's definitely an interesting one and worth discussing. 

Edit- And for the record, I did get the Pfizer shot (even though I was originally booked in for the Moderna) and I've been fine since. Admittedly I did have a crappy headache yesterday (72 hours after), but that could have been due to anything given that it's not uncommon for me to get headaches every once in a while. It passed later in the day. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by daniel_v

[foats]

Very nice write up Daniel and am glad to see others responding on this as well.

I had the headache after the 2nd shot. I was extremely tired the whole day and like a fool decided to go in to my office to do some work. My main office is 5 mins from my house so I drove home for lunch and had 3 cups of coffee to try and stay awake.  I got back to work and had the pounding headache.  One of my acct managers gave me some pills and I was able to finish up the day. I went home and instantly fell asleep. 

I have a friend I've known since I was born. He's my parents age and we went with his friend and his friends wife to see Seinfeld a few yrs ago. Just found out today his friends wife has Covid and has been very sick. She was just about to get her 2nd vaccine when she got sick. 

I have a friend who consults with neuro surgeons. Basically sits in on brain surgery.  She told me flat out that with the data  it would be better to be get the vaccine than to not get it at this point. 

I work with many people in India and to see what is happening there is an absolute shame. I see we are going to have concerts back by Summer and fall and I am curious how things will go. I know Super Bowl and Wrestlemania seemed to go off without trouble. UFC had an indoor event that also went off without being deemed a "super spreader"  so maybe it can be done safely. 

One thing that brings me stress and worry is something the nurse said to me prior to my 2nd shot. I asked about being protected from the mutated versions and she said "yes"  How can we be protected from something unseen? Something that we don't know what it will contain or look like?  That's my biggest worry.  Will we still need to mask up and get shots every 6 months?

Something else to seriously consider and I mean really think about is this. We had this deadly virus for a year and globally/internationally we came up with a vaccine within a year. So how come 30+ yrs and none for AIDS, or Cancer? Is it really all about money? Does Mexico really have the cure for Cancer? I think we are left with more questions than answers. Hopefully we get the answers sooner than later. 

[Sly Botts]

On 5/6/2021 at 9:18 PM, foats said:

Something else to seriously consider and I mean really think about is this. We had this deadly virus for a year and globally/internationally we came up with a vaccine within a year. So how come 30+ yrs and none for AIDS, or Cancer? Is it really all about money? Does Mexico really have the cure for Cancer? I think we are left with more questions than answers. Hopefully we get the answers sooner than later. 

COVID is related to the same virus as SARS.  They have been working on vaccines for this virus type for many years.  Its not like they just created one in x1 year.  Also yes we've have unprecedented cooperation and sharing of information by scientists and money thrown at COVID due to its effect on the global economy. You're darn right they're going to sort this out fast because the world economy depends on it.  Funding for research is a major factor for sure.  In reality there is only so much money to go around and only so many resources available at any given time and any given place.  Its all about priorities and playing the long game in some instances. 

When I had the Pfizer vaccine, the first shot did me in for a day but the second one did nothing to me.  Honestly, people should just get the damn vaccine so we can move on from this crazy situation. There is no technology in this world that could allow for hidden chips or anything stupid like that to be inside these vaccines.  All of this conspiracy stuff is because of social media and people believing misleading information they read online.  I understand people are skeptical, but come on!  These are doctors and specialists. People who are experts in these fields, who spend their lives in the trenches researching and studying these things. They don't have an agenda.

[Gomo]

On 7/14/2021 at 5:23 PM, Sly Botts said:

COVID is related to the same virus as SARS.  They have been working on vaccines for this virus type for many years.  Its not like they just created one in x1 year.  Also yes we've have unprecedented cooperation and sharing of information by scientists and money thrown at COVID due to its effect on the global economy. You're darn right they're going to sort this out fast because the world economy depends on it.  Funding for research is a major factor for sure.  In reality there is only so much money to go around and only so many resources available at any given time and any given place.  Its all about priorities and playing the long game in some instances. 

When I had the Pfizer vaccine, the first shot did me in for a day but the second one did nothing to me.  Honestly, people should just get the damn vaccine so we can move on from this crazy situation. There is no technology in this world that could allow for hidden chips or anything stupid like that to be inside these vaccines.  All of this conspiracy stuff is because of social media and people believing misleading information they read online.  I understand people are skeptical, but come on!  These are doctors and specialists. People who are experts in these fields, who spend their lives in the trenches researching and studying these things. They don't have an agenda.

The problem is the Internet is a misinformation factory and politics, social media, and some "news" outlets have completely polarized people. Instead of a shared common goal of eradicating the virus by wearing masks and getting vaccinated, for too long both wearing masks and getting vaccinated became a political matter before a public health matter. There's no unity in our society.

[Sly Botts]

Technically, vaccinated people can still spread the virus and get sick (technically, but odds are low). They're just less likely to die or have severe side effects. What's starting to upset me now is this sudden dumping on unvaccinated people, which is awful. Like everything is now their fault. People need to stop this rhetoric. Pretty soon, there's no longer going to be a "left" vs "right" polarization. It's going to turn into an unvaccinated vs vaccinated polarization. If you want people to be vaccinated, vilifying them won't make it happen. Communicating, educating and being open to discussion will. After 5 years of political unrest in the West and 2 years of a global pandemic, I think people have had enough Rhetoric.  Covid vaccine hesitancy is not the same as being an anti-vaxxer, however the anti-vaxxers are sure using this situation to push their world view and encourage people to not vaccinate.