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Matt

What Is It To Be Anti-war?

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Working together isn't always the best solution.

in your own opinion, of course, because I don't agree with you on that: if working together is not always the best solution, in my opinion, then we are living in the "jungle" and whoever wants to do whatever he/she wants will be able to do it

 

and OF COURSE I know the Spanish Civil War ended in a cruel and terrorific dictatorship... and how do you think that dictatorship ended? with cooperation and understanding and that "working together" that you seem not to like among citizens and political parties (and the b death of Franco) which took society and politicians to finally create a democratic system with the first democratic elections in Spain in a long time...

I've given an example of how working together didn't work. I believe another person has brought this up already. The Treaty of Versailles was the allies working together. Through peace talks they basically took what they want. Standing up for one self is as important as communication.

 

I don't know if you've seen a TV show called "Due South". In the third and fourth season especially they display, in my opinion, the U.S./Canada relationship quite well. They have the Canadian try to talk and work out an agreement first that both sides can be happy with. That works because we don't threaten them. If that doesn't work they have the American threaten to "kick them in the head" (I believe that's how Vecchio/Kowalski says it, or something like that). Now, unfortunately under George W. Bush that has not happened. That is how after World War II agreements were usually tried to happen. In a sense the show displayed that on a smaller scale. The show even explains you need the Americans for that when talking fails, and talking does fail. That's when other solutions should be looked at. I am not talking about going in and taking what a country wants. Other avenues should be looked at first. Sometimes, the sad reality of this world is people do not care to co-operate and work together.

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I haven't seen that show (I dont even know it, i'm not from northamerica, i live in Spain and sometimes we don't get all the shows you guys get there)...

 

at least, i agree with you a lil bit, not completely, on one point: "the sad reality of this world is that people do not care to co-operate and work together"

 

it is true that co-operation and working together are not "fashionable" nowadays... the main idea is to destroy the person you have next to you, to step over him no matter how much harm you do to him/her, individualism and selfishness... but FORTUNATELY not everybody is in that way and we are many people who still believe in international peace, in anti-militarism, in co-operation, in understanding... and we are many people who are still working to get a better world, step by step, lil by lil? yes, but at least trying... and with some positive results (i am a member of some social organizations in Madrid who help people in need and i see improvements... lil by lil, yes, that's true... but at least improvements in people's lifes)

 

I dont think i will ever change, i dont think i will ever give up trying to get a better world with more understanding and co-operation among us... no, i won't ever give up

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I never said that we shouldn't try to work together. However, there are many people that would like to take what they want. Sometimes it is impossible to stop those who will take what they want without using force. The world does want to avoid war too. That's why people have tried to work together. There are still many that oppose that idea though. There is a very good chance that will always be the case too.

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Juanpe, 1st let me say i'm sorry about the death of your friends and family.

 

Yes your 2nd post was more clear. I just thought you were dodging the question in your 1st reply, because it didn't directly answer any of my questions.

 

From the gist of it, you are for solving disputes though communication and co-operation and are against military action. I still feel though, that your views, as you've admitted before, are a bit idealistic and utopian. I just have to respectfully disagree with your opinion that ALL wars are unjustified. Civil wars are usually much different than other wars. They are usually an uprising against government, or disputes between 2 sides about rights or the separation of states. Often communication and trade-offs can work, or at least help the conflict. But civil wars are much different than one country invading another for the purpose of acquiring territory etc. like Hilter conquering Europe or Saddam invading Kuwait. Sometimes communication, trade embragos, or economic sanctins etc. just do not work. Same with genocide.

 

Yes it is always best to use diplomacy before military action, but the reality is that it doesn't always work. A country that invades your country, and doesn't respond to any talks, will leave you with 2 choices: either you choose not to fight and risk death or slavery, or you can choose to fight back for your freedom. Personally i'd do the latter. It would be interesting to see what you would do if forced into such a corner, and thats really what my other question was trying to ask.

 

As English philosopher Edmund Burke once said: "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

Edited by Moonlight_Graham
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I don't know what I would do, honestly, i don't know... but I only imagine solving problems thru diplomacy, or at least trying to solve problems with dimoplacy... I agree with you on "it is always best to use diplomacy before military action, but the reality is that it doesn't always work" but sometimes I think that it is because it is not tried hard enough to avoid any problem without using weapons...

 

i don't know... i guess if i had the answer to all these questions, i would be Nobel prize or something like that, or the President of a country... but i'm not

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Hitler could have been stopped before anything happened. Germany at the time was under a treaty that limited the German army to maximum of 100,000 soldiers. He broke the treaty and the rest of the world ignored it. He started factories building weapons. Again, all ignored. By the time he invaded Austria it was probably already too late to stop him without waging war. When he invaded Poland the war began. By then he was so powerful with trained soldiers and lots of weapons that you can see what happened. It's all history now.

Why were the other countries allowing this even though Hitler should have been shut down right away? I think it's probably the money. The economy of Germany started rocketing. It was good for trading partners. So why shut down Hitler and shut down a good thing? If people had done the right thing and enforced the treaty right away history would be a lot different. But one thing that never changes is people's greed. China is crushing Tibet. Why does no one do anything? China has huge potential for a lot people in the form of companies and countries to make a lot of money.

Money makes the world go round, babe.

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How could they have stopped Germany? They would have used force most likely. Isn't that the same as going to war then?

 

The reason people don't stop China is because China is strong. It's hard enough for the Americans to keep China away from Taiwan.

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If they had acted as soon as they saw the treaty being broken, they could have stopped Hitler without war. He started with virtually nothing. The other European countries gave him lots of time to build his armies and arsonal. War takes two sides. They gave him so much time it became a nightmare.

The world is deathly silent when it comes to China invading Tibet. It's like they're looking the other way. Like no one cares.

I'm wondering why you're defending war so strongly, Matt? Did you lose someone in a war or is there some other reason for you to feel so passionately?

Peace, man.

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There's no guarantee he wouldn't have fought anyway...routing a vastly inferior enemy is still a war.

 

Which of course, would be a perfect example of how swift, decisive violence could very well have prevented the greatest war the world has ever seen.

Edited by Sparq
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Do I really need a motive to support war as a last resort? I believe it is unfair to disrespect those lost in World War I, and World War II by saying all wars are needless. Those people helped keep our world free. I believe it is reckless to disrespect that.

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Have you ever seen 'The Valour and the Horror'?. It's about ww2 and it's been a while since I've seen it but most of the old men who were soldiers there say 'never again'. I'm sure if they could go back in time to change events and prevent that most gruesome of wars they would die trying. My step dad fought in ww2 as well. To this day he refuses to talk about it. There is a place inside that is a dark dark hole where no one goes.

WW2 could have been prevented, just like Iraq could have prevented and the attack on Pearl Harbour which lead to the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki could have been avoided.

The soldiers that fight have my respect and kindness and sympathy. They've been fucked over by governments that are just using them as pawns to acheive an end. That end often has nothing to do with the lives of the soldiers or their families. War sucks for them too, man. Saying that there is no alternative for soldiers except to let them go through the shit of war over and over and over again, is bullshit. Humanity owes it to them to try to find a way.

I honestly believe that war can be avoided. Of course the past can't be changed and what's the point on dwelling on it unless it is to learn from our mistakes.

People dreampt of flying. Look at all the fuck ups and crashes. If we had lived at that time we probably would have shook our heads and told them 'quit dreaming'. They didn't, they learned from each others' mistakes and now planes are so commonplace we see them up there flying and don't even think about it.

Dare to dream, babe.

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I honestly believe that war can be avoided.

I agree with you (pretty obvious that you native speaker of English explains it better than me, I hate it because I cannot make myself so clearly understandable because English is not my first language ;) ) completely, Tati...

 

I think we are going around this topic already, repeating the same opinions without any possible change...

 

and I guess i (or even you) would be "accused" of being too utopic and idealistic for having that inner and sometimes "obsessive" idea and desire that a war can be avoided, that a war is not the solution to solve any problem...

Edited by juanpe
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They've been fucked over by governments that are just using them as pawns to acheive an end. That end often has nothing to do with the lives of the soldiers or their families.

We're all pawns, that's what government is. You can't have government without underlings. Maybe it's true that the ends a soldier fights for aren't always in his or her best interests...but you cannot ignore the fact that sometimes, they are.

 

Perhaps some day, it will be true that war is never neccessary. Extremely unlikely in my opinion, but I don't pretend to be able to see the future. In any case, that day is not today...and it will not be any time soon.

Edited by Sparq
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I think it'd do some good for society to have war. The only way humanity has been able to reinvent itself is by destroying its last society. Usually it's better then the last but there are ways of getting around it. If people knew how to communicate properly and learn to accept, we wouldn't need it. Instead, people have to learn through death,greed, and hate each and everytime. Maybe everyone the third time . It's all those men who enjoy playing plactic soldiers with real men who need to grow up.

There is no way that the opinion of millions can be changed to make love and not war. It's always been the way to end hundreds of desputes but it's the way our species evolves. Someday, I hope, we'll come together as a whole and respect one anothers religions,opinions, and choices on how to live.

 

If there is a world war, and it does affect North America, many people will probably be at risk of starvation and disease. They depend on others to provide food, water , shelter, and first aid.

I'm surprised by the amount of people that do not know basic survival, at least here.

 

I am anti-war, but it doesn't mean that war will not hit. We really have no idea what is going on, who has what kind of weapon, or when something could occur. I don't think war will occur until I'm in my late 20's. But when everyone starts fighting, at least I have knowledge on my natural surroundings. The corner store isn’t going to be there when everyone need’s their bottled water and bag of lays chips. It all comes down to survival of the fittest.

That’s just my theory.

 

 

I am anti-war, but it doesn't mean that war will not hit. We really have no idea what is going on, who has what kind of weapon, or when something could occur. I don't think war will occur until I'm in my late 20's. But when everyone starts fighting, atleast I know I have knowledge on my surounding area.

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War is a terrible thing, I don't disagree. I do, however, disagree that people will lose war. The world is selfish. The world has always been selfish. For all our changes, the world still is selfish. It is unlikely that the world will become un-selfish soon either. As long as the world is selfish, war will exist. War is a way for someone to take what they want...

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I agree completely that some people are self centred assholes that don't give a shit, and there always will be. But if we can control them (pretty much) here in Canada with rules and courts and jails, maybe we can do the same to countries with rules and courts and embargos. But of course the whole world would have to be involved. And not with the US calling all the shots. The should have demerit points for the way they've been acting for the last 50 or more years.

 

Btw, my three dogs were little assholes fighting all the time until I finally got them neutered. Now they're sweet all time. I wonder how that would work on Bush?

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I agree completely that some people are self centred assholes that don't give a shit, and there always will be. But if we can control them (pretty much) here in Canada with rules and courts and jails, maybe we can do the same to countries with rules and courts and embargos. But of course the whole world would have to be involved. And not with the US calling all the shots. The should have demerit points for the way they've been acting for the last 50 or more years.

 

Btw, my three dogs were little assholes fighting all the time until I finally got them neutered. Now they're sweet all time. I wonder how that would work on Bush?

i dunno. People have been trying to stop the Israeli/Palestinian war for many, many years. Communication would be all its needed to solve that conflict, but it may be impossible to force people to talk when they only want to fight.

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It's a mess over there because the Brits went in, drew a line on a map and said there's the border. Imagine someone doing that to us. Why would we respect that? Briton has really fucked things over there. The US and Briton have been meddling in other countries' business for way to long.

And why do they have two votes instead of one in the UN? I'd like to see them get no votes for a while and see how things change. But then again they step against the UN and no one says squat.

We need rules that apply equally for everyone.

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The U.N. is voluntary. However, the U.N. drew the line in the end between the two countries. Britain only suggested that idea, the Israelis agreed to it, but the Palestinians did not. Great Britain sent the case to the U.N. since they were anxious to leave the area since their mandate to protect it was running out. The U.N. decided that was the best solution. Day one of the new country, several Arab countries attacked the new Israeli country. Israel managed to with stand the attack because of poor co-ordination on the part of the Arabs. All of a sudden a good army seemed to be a good idea for the country because these attacks might happen again.

 

Why the U.S. is involved is because the Jewish population living in the U.S. is well organized. They support and oppose policies depending on the effect they will have on Israel. They have a loud voice because of their organization is so well done. The Arabs on the other hand are not as well organized thus the U.S. is forced to take notice more of the Jewish situation. However, recently (According to CBC.ca) both George W. Bush, and Tony Blair said they would help out Palestine if they have free elections, and a democracy. How they will help out? I don't know... I'm guessing they would give aid or something along those lines to help the people...

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I would just include here, to finish, one of my most favorite sentences (lyrics, actually) and that are some sorta the leit motiv of my life:

 

“Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one. I hope someday you’ll join us, and the world will live as one.”

 

--John Lennon

 

dedicated for all of you who think like me

 

kisses and hugs,

juanpe

Edited by juanpe
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It's a mess over there because the Brits went in, drew a line on a map and said there's the border. Imagine someone doing that to us. Why would we respect that? Briton has really fucked things over there.

 

Im fresh out of history class...so here it goes

 

What happened in the middle east is that Britain,and the allies promised the arabs Sovergnty if they would help the allies in world war 1. However Britain and France signed the Sykes Picot agreement which effectivly Split the middle east between England and France. To make it worse this was a secret agreement. In this agreement Palestine and Jordan was given to Britain and Lebanon (sp?) and Syria was given to France.

 

In 1917 Britain passed the Belfour act, makeing Palestine the Jewish homeland. In 1936 over 60,000 jews moved there (to escape the rise of facism, etc). In 1947 the UN creates Isreal.

 

This is like someone moving into your house and saying that they will only stay for a couple of days. The days turn to weeks and they keep on saying that they will get out soon. Finnaly they just decide to move into your house. Naturally your going to want to kick them out... This is the root of all the terrorism and anti-semetism in Isreal today.

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In 1917 Britain passed the Belfour act, makeing Palestine the Jewish homeland. In 1936 over 60,000 jews moved there (to escape the rise of facism, etc). In 1947 the UN creates Isreal.

You know you're history quite well, but you're slightly off on this part. "The Balfour act" merely promised a homeland, the British never promised a country, simply a place of "residence", so to speak. The British, however, also promised a homeland to Palestine. Both sides did take this to mean a country, while the British envsioned both sides living together in the same area.

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