Peta Paradox

[miss new wave]

Jennifer was protesting in front of Sears, not Guess nor LV. So I’m not entirely sure what you’re trying to say. Is it that Sears carries Guess and therefore she must have bought the top at Sears?

From Jen's blog:

 

If we have enough activists we may also have a presence near the Guess store (they are really close to Sears), Guess, like Sears, is selling fur this year.

[Guest Help]

Yikes! I guess I should read the wife’s blog more often. I do know that the faux fur top you originally mentioned is DKNY, not Guess, but we’ve both shopped in guess before. Then again, it wasn’t until this year that Guess starting bringing in fur products.

 

Making choices is a personal thing. I wouldn’t say that shopping at Guess last year and Jen’s mention in her blog constitutes hypocrisy though. I live in a country in which human rights abuses occur, yet I support a human rights organization and speak on their behalf to university and high school students. Does it make me a hypocrite for staying in Canada?

 

I own a car and therefore am part of the problem when it comes to pollution. I’m working to change that by researching alternate fuel vehicles. But does that mean that I can’t comment on the fact that US unilateral actions in the Middle East are predicated partially on oil futures? So that we can fill our cars up with cheap gas, innocent people get killed. But because I buy gas I therefore am not allowed to comment on it?

 

If that were the case, we should consider ourselves in chains and openly embrace the belief that nothing can be done to change that which is inhumane and unjust.

 

I realize that posting a thread and posing a question does not really require a great deal of forethought. I also realize that, in this instance, that may very well have been the case.

[ToadMan]

I think you make a point. It is impossible for an observer to know why each protester is present. We would then attribute the overall motivation of the protest to all of the protesters. By that logic, if the protest was to expand to the other store, then all of the protesters would be protesting both stores for their choice to sell fur.

 

I believe the remaining statement can go unsaid. I will say that I respect anybody who has the integrity to go out and protest against something that they believe in. By that right, they should not be held at fault for their history, but only for their future. We cannot call somebody a hypocrite for at some point acting contra to their current believes. Almost all vegetarians at some point ate meat. Does that make their view on the meat industry less valid. To extend that, many anti-drug associations have members that where once addicts, does that make the association any less valid.

 

Peace

[Crusader]

If that were the case, we should consider ourselves in chains and openly embrace the belief that nothing can be done to change that which is inhumane and unjust.

 

But we can make a difference. The only problem is that people think that war is the only way to propagate change. While we're arguing over fur, people are shooting at each other a few thousand miles away from us. I feel we should try fixing that before we worry about our animals.

[Maverick]

In a general sense I would agree: stop war is a primary.

 

At the same time I think lobbying for animal rights should be an issue at all times until change sets in. When you set something aside, people become sidetracked, the movements lose their intensity and effectiveness and ultimately we're losing focus on a key issue in society.

 

I suppose what Matt tries to do is raise every issue, because we're only stronger if we recognize all the world's problems and give them all substantial weight. Can we say that human rights are more important of an issue than animal rights? Well, there's the question I suppose.

Edited December 13, 2004 by Maverick

[Dan #1]

While we're arguing over fur, people are shooting at each other a few thousand miles away from us. I feel we should try fixing that before we worry about our animals.

I believe that we as human beings find it easier to help out animals than other human beings. Other than the fact that it is a physical struggle with human beings (i.e. War) there is also the economical struggle which is astronomical when compared to the costs of trying to save animals. Humans may be more important to save, but doing so is a much harder task than saving animals.

Human nature: take the easiest route possible and try to feel good about yourself.

[MrManInvisible]

I could never give up meat... leather too. But that doesn't make me a bad person does it?

 

Sorta. The fact that you're saying that means you lie to yourself at the expense of others. Anyone can give up anything they want that is not essential to living. Meat is not essential to life (as a human) and leather is absolutely not essential. Only to the lives of those they take it from.

 

As for helping other causes instead of arguing about animals, how hard is it to not eat meat or wear fur or leather at the same time that you're protesting sweatshop labor or the war in Iraq? I'll tell you it's not hard at all. Don't give me any of this one or the other crap. You can do so much at once and animal rights is the easiest cause to support. All you have to do is not eat a certain food and not wear certain clothing. Simple.

Edited December 13, 2004 by MrManInvisible

[Crusader]

I could never give up meat... leather too. But that doesn't make me a bad person does it?

 

Sorta. The fact that you're saying that means you lie to yourself at the expense of others. Anyone can give up anything they want that is not essential to living. Meat is not essential to life (as a human) and leather is absolutely not essential. Only to the lives of those they take it from.

 

As for helping other causes instead of arguing about animals, how hard is it to not eat meat or wear fur or leather at the same time that you're protesting sweatshop labor or the war in Iraq? I'll tell you it's not hard at all. Don't give me any of this one or the other crap. You can do so much at once and animal rights is the easiest cause to support. All you have to do is not eat a certain food and not wear certain clothing. Simple.

It's all a matter of choice. I choose to eat meat because I want to. You can't force your beliefs on me because you want things to change. This is just the war thing all over again. People have to choose to want to do something, you can't force it down people's throats like that.

[S.E. Hardy]

I'm sick of this thread.

[MrManInvisible]

Funny, Crusader, you talking about forcing others to do something. As if I'm forcing you to do anything at all. But the fact that you're complaining about being "forced" to, what I can only assume you mean is, listen to a different side of things while the other side is that animals are being forced (in the true sense of the word) to live horrendous lives is incredibly ironic. Don't ask questions if you don't want others opinions. And don't complain about other people trying to make a difference. And why not choose to do something to help out.

Edited December 13, 2004 by MrManInvisible

[Maverick]

Yeah, I definitly agree with Crusader on this one.

 

There's a point where eating meat becomes very utilitarian insofar as the enjoyment and benefits from meat consumption should be a choice for the consumer because of these benefits. If everyone were to stop eating meat, I think there would be a lot of disatisfaction. Certainly, this would not end the mistreatment of animals either.

 

I don't know, it may sound selfish but I believe that meat eating is an essential part of our culture and our species. I'm sure people will disagree though.

[MrManInvisible]

If everyone were to stop eating meat, I think there would be a lot of disatisfaction. Certainly, this would not end the mistreatment of animals either.

True, there will be dissatisfaction, but I think people are so selfish. We're living life as good as it gets, we should be able to give up one luxary, especially with the knowledge that we have as far as faux meat, dietary supplements (not just vitamins, either. Soy for protien for example), and the lives and biological factors (such as pain and emotions) of the animals we use. And it wouldn't end mistreatment of animals either, but it's not to say that any other mistreatment would be turned a blind eye.

 

Edit: Sorry for turning this into a vegetarian topic instead of the intended anti-fur / standing up for what you believe in topic.

Edited December 13, 2004 by MrManInvisible

[Crusader]

Funny, Crusader, you talking about forcing others to do something. As if I'm forcing you to do anything at all. But the fact that you're complaining about being "forced" to, what I can only assume you mean is, listen to a different side of things while the other side is that animals are being forced (in the true sense of the word) to live horrendous lives is incredibly ironic. Don't ask questions if you don't want others opinions. And don't complain about other people trying to make a difference. And why not choose to do something to help out.

I haven't forced anyone to do anything.

 

I haven't complained about others trying to make a difference either. I just said that I ate meat and didn't want to give it up. You called me a bad person for this. It all depends on your point of view. I was raised to believe that eating meat was a normal part of life. I've given up beef for several reasons but I still eat meat. Just because you believe that something is wrong doesn't necessarily mean it is.

 

I have respect for people who stand up for what they believe in but like I said before, it all depends on your point of view.

[Maverick]

Would meat be considered a luxury good. Would it cost a family more to obtain the necessary amount of nutriants and benefits from dietray supplements and such? Would poorer families have access to it? I guess I haven't researched into this one so anyone who would know, fill me in.

 

I think the question is, what would it cost society as a whole? I guess I'm referrring to the huge meat industry that feeds the world today. Would the standard of living be reduced. Once again, this would lead to a great deal of dissatisfaction as utility would surely not be maximized.

 

I suppose it's all hard to say.

[MrManInvisible]

Would it cost a family more to obtain the necessary amount of nutriants and benefits from dietray supplements and such? Would poorer families have access to it?

Here is a great link for suppliments. There is a table a little ways down into the page (it's a very long page) that shows what foods provide what nutrients. Every day foods such as broccoli (for calcium) and orange juice (for vitamins) that we eat anyways can give us the same as what we can get in meat. It's nothing tough to get.

 

eatright.org

 

 

"I haven't forced anyone to do anything."

 

Crusader, I didn't say you've forced anyone to do anything. I said that animals are being forced to live horrible lives. I wasn't implying that you're a factory farm worker or the president of some meat company or another who literally forces the animals themselves. I understand that you have other people do your dirty work for you. And again, you asked if it made you a bad person and I replied. I didn't come out and say it for no reason.

 

in the words of another great Canadian band (Propagandhi)

"You can feign ignorance, but you're not stupid, you're just selfish. And you're a slave to your impulse."

 

EDIT: I just want to say one more thing. I'm very adamant about this topic because people tend to easily brush it off as unimportant because it does not effect that directly (animal abuse that is). I have not gone up to someone and told them they are a bad person and I don't hate people who eat meat (because it's always better to try your hand at persuading them to consider what they're doing and it's impossible to do so when someone hates you). The only reason I am saying this is beacause someone else has brought it up. I don't apologize for anything i may have said on this topic (yet at least) but it truly does seem to be a matter of apathy and somewhat of ignorance. And I'm not about to accuse anyone of not standing up for any causes themselves, but if you haven't, then who are you to say anything at all. And I've off and gone on another rant. Sorry, i'll stop now.

Edited December 13, 2004 by MrManInvisible

[Crusader]

I eat meat, I must be a bad person. I am selfish but we all are.

 

I wasn't implying that you're a factory farm worker or the president of some meat company or another who literally forces the animals themselves.

You can't really blame them though. It's there job too, it's not like they enjoy killing the animals. We started a long time ago, we're all part of the problem. I could say plants are alive too but then what would that leave us to eat?

 

edit: Wow, this is way off topic. Someone post something relevant to the original post.

[Ravenous itchy]

I don't apologize for anything i may have said on this topic (yet at least) but it truly does seem to be a matter of apathy and somewhat of ignorance.

 

Mabye you should think a bit before you start calling people ignorant. For one, I know personally, that animal farmers treat their animals with the utmost respect that animals deserve. Their well-being is directly related to the well-being of their animals. You can throw around bullshit about 'ignorance' and 'apathy' but you really have no f-ing idea what you are talking about yourself.

 

Secondly, animals are not people, people come first. People need food, animals provide food, that is a necessity in our society. You have absolutely no right to call people selfish just because they eat meat. If you think you are making people vegatarians by attacking us you are an idiot.

 

I just called my friend over (who is a vegetarian) and after reading he said people like you really don't help make vegetarians look good.

Edited December 13, 2004 by itchy

[frustrated inc.]

In the spirit of blanket statements:

 

I hate vegetarians.

 

Unless it's for health reasons, of course.

[Lauren]

i rarely talk about my vegtarianism. it usually just comes up when someone askes me if i'd like to have a hotdog for supper (although we all know its hardly meat). as with any cause, all one can do is provide information. it's up to the person they are talking to to make the decision. i don't eat meat because i don't like the taste of most of it. i know people who don't eat it because some of it is pumped fuill of preservatives (one person i spoke to was going to school to be a dietian). some don't eat it because the thought of a whole industry based upon killing living, breathing things just for us and our enjoyment is disgusting.

i encourage vegetarianism because no meat is alot healthier then too much meat, as most people do not eat their meat in the correct proportional amounts.

i don't think not eating meat does anythign to those who abuse animals. generally, the animals killed for people to eat are killed in something of a human way. there are some meat industries i do not support. i am very very against hunting in every way shape and form. thats a different story. and besides, it's my bedtime.

[badseed]

**vomits all over this thread**

 

why don't we just end it, lock it...

this is completely getting out of hand.

[MrManInvisible]

I hope you keep an open mind while reading this

 

oh itchy itchy itchy... where to begin.

 

1. I didn't call anyone in specific ignorant. That means you, who i haven't even talked to before so no use getting on the defense and telling me what you know about farm animals.

2. I don't know if you're referring to farm animals as in free range/organic farmers (and i still don't think that killing an animal is giving it the respect it deserves) but the majority of supermarkets in the US are Giants and Safeways and Food Lions etc. Thousands of them. Do you think that the ammount of meat that they sell every day could come from such small farms? A majority of the meat comes from factory farms where there is no way that you can make the claim that the animals are treated with respect. Fed by machines while in stalls where they can barely turn around. Thousands of chickens crammed into one house where they can't roam around outside and get the fresh air they need. Male chickens literally thrown away. Heffers kept impregnated so they remain producing milk at the highest capacity, the milk then being taken and sold while the calf is taken away and often sold for veal.

3. I'll throw around my "bullshit" like apathy and ignorance because you don't care about the fact that animals are treated bad so we can eat them (apathy) and because a lot of people don't know how they are treated (ignorance). People don't become vegetarians for no reason, it's because they learn something. Whether for health or animal reasons, they learned something one day that they were ignorant about the day before. Nobody (even you) knows everything. So throw around your bullshit about not wanting to know or care but you really have no f-ing idea what you're talking about.

4. Animals provide food, as you say, and food is, again in your words, a necessity. Maybe you don't realize that there is a variety of other food out there that do not live the same animal life as we do (i.e. plants and don't make me explain to you why plants don't have feelings with any "But plants are alive too" crap. I'm giving you enough credit to be able to figure that out on your own). And why do we have to choose between animals and people? Because people are too selfish to give up the taste of meat. We do not need it. We are omnivores, meaning we are able to, if needed, survive off of all meat or off of all plant matter. We don't need both. So don't tell me it's one or the other.

5. If you think I am attacking you, then you are missing the entire point. People are too close minded and whenever something is brought up that challeneges their ways in "society", they are instantly on the defense (I'm no idiot). I'm not attacking you, i'm telling you what's going on and you're quick to make excuses.

6. I don't care that you're friends with a vegetarian, it doesn't make you any more knowledgable on the matter. And I don't care if he doesn't like people who actually talk about thei vegetarianism either. If someone is a vegetarian for animal causes then they would be wasting their time if they never said anything. Who cares about making vegetarians look good? Supporting a cause means trying to make a fucking difference and you're not going to do it with your mouth shut. To not eat meat because you think there should be a change in how they are treated, and then not care that other people eat it, is the same as eating it yourself.

 

I hope you kept an open mind while read this.

[Dan #1]

4. Animals provide food, as you say, and food is, again in your words, a necessity. Maybe you don't realize that there is a variety of other food out there that do not live the same animal life as we do (i.e. plants and don't make me explain to you why plants don't have feelings with any "But plants are alive too" crap. I'm giving you enough credit to be able to figure that out on your own). And why do we have to choose between animals and people? Because people are too selfish to give up the taste of meat. We do not need it. We are omnivores, meaning we are able to, if needed, survive off of all meat or off of all plant matter. We don't need both. So don't tell me it's one or the other.

I agree that we can live without eating meat. But I would like to point out the fact that if a human lives without meat, they are less likely to live a long and healthy life when compared to a person eating a moderate amount of meat. Killing animals in order to make our lives healthier and more enjoyable is well worth it... it is just a part of life. Humans have been eating meat since the beginning of our existance. Other organisms kill for their food sources as well, no matter how viciously. There is no reason to debate changing our eating habits because: 1) People have the freedom of choice, 2) if all humans stopped eating meat there would be a large imbalance worldwide (i have no idea what the effect would be... but im sure it would be large), 3) Meat is so damned tasty

[Maverick]

danimal brings up a pretty good point about the fact that without regulating the rapid spread of our domestic animals we would be absolutely over run by them. There's a distinct reason why a food chain exists in our world and why there is such diversity in our ecosystems. We should avoid such imbalances because they usually harvest harzardous outcomes because I believe they are simply not meant to be in nature.

[miss new wave]

As the original poster, let me just say....WHOA!

 

This thread has gotten WAY out of hand, and WAY off topic. My intent was not to spark up a big debate about the legitimacy of PETA or the moral issues regarding vegetarianism. For the two or three of you who continue to argue...ENOUGH ALREADY!!

 

On top of that, I've gone and pissed off Matt..(who ever thought he would read this?!?! d'oh!!). But I'm glad he did respond - he made some good points and I respect his coming to his wife's defense. I shall no longer judge people based on their past shopping habits.

 

Anyway people, let's just let it go. If you want to debate this further, just email each other...leave the rest of us out of this please.

 

Cheers.

[MrManInvisible]

I agree that we can live without eating meat. But I would like to point out the fact that if a human lives without meat, they are less likely to live a long and healthy life when compared to a person eating a moderate amount of meat. Killing animals in order to make our lives healthier and more enjoyable is well worth it... it is just a part of life. Humans have been eating meat since the beginning of our existance. Other organisms kill for their food sources as well, no matter how viciously. There is no reason to debate changing our eating habits because: 1) People have the freedom of choice, 2) if all humans stopped eating meat there would be a large imbalance worldwide (i have no idea what the effect would be... but im sure it would be large), 3) Meat is so damned tasty

There isn't any evidence that people who live without meat are less likely to live a long and healthy life. Whether you eat meat or not, a long and healthy life will depend on your diet. A person who does eat meat could eat tons of greasy burgers and fast food and have a heart attack at the age of 50 just as easily as a vegetarian could eat nothing but grilled cheese and become really malnourished. There is such a slight percentage of the US population that actually eats for health reasons and keeps track of it all for that specific purpose. Most just eat because they're stomaches tell them they're hungry and once they're not hungry anymore, they stop eating. There is also plenty of research that shows that a vegetarian diet can lead you to a long healthy life too, just as well as a meat consuming diet can.

1. And I know, I know, I know, we have the freedom of choice. That's why i'm not holding a gun to anyone's head. I just happen to believe that animals should have something of a voice in the matter of their being killed for our benefits.

2. If all humans stopped using sweatshop labor products there would also be an imbalance worldwide, it doesn't mean an imbalance is bad.

3. Meat is tasty, i'm not arguing that. But Heroin feels good too.