Canadian Troops Going To Iraq?

[Munk]

Clarify what you think needs reforming. I'm not about to type out any manifestos on this board.

[Biggie]

Well, you want a world council to decide what Canada should do in terms of peacekeeping. Obviously, right now such a world council would be: the US, UK, France, China and Russia. Obviously, that's not acceptable.

 

How would you make it so that our peacekeepers aren't hostage to the interests of those 5 countries?

[Munk]

Sadly, other than including more countries in the vote to dilute the voting power of the major countries, I don't have an answer for you.

[Sparq]

Sparq:  Yes, Canada's armed forces are underfunded and overstretched, but that's Martin's own doing.  You'd think with a $9 B surplus, we could reinvest in certain areas formerly cut.

Problem is, the Army alone needs about that much, right now, just to get back to full strength. That's to say nothing of the Navy and Air Force. Then another few billion per year to keep things up to spec. The military has been mismanaged for a long time now. If it keeps going this way much longer, it will be the first time in history that a 'first world' nation has allowed its own military to go completely bankrupt.

 

I don't want Canada to have a military period.  A peace keeping force is fine, but once the war is over.

 

That's pretty much the way it's going already, unfortunately. The current government has been talking about turning the military into a 'rapid reaction force' ...and in doing so, has made idiotic decisions on equipment purchasing from a practical standpoint. Example: They are buying the MGS variant of the LAV3 armored, wheeled combat vehicle as a replacement for our aging, but functional Leopard C2 tanks. These MGSs pack the same gun as the Leopard, but have less armour, less mobility, less ammunition capacity, and cannot fire the discarding sabot anti-tank ammunition required for engagement of heavily armored targets (ie T-72s commonly encountered in the middle east). Its armour can be penetrated by the common RPG-7, unlike the armour of the Leopard. The MGS has failed all US military trials. It costs MORE than buying used M1 Abrams tanks from the states, as Australia has done. Their reasoning for all this? Wheels scare the locals less than tracks. It's good to know they're willing to sacrifice crew suvivability to keep foreign civilians happy.

 

There's also the issue of Canada having no aircraft capable of transporting a Leopard. The MGS can be carried by one of our few Hercules - but only one at a time, and even that is pushing it as far as weight goes. As it stands now, the only waty we can rapidly deploy ANY force capable of dealing with an armoured opponent, is through the assistance of American aircraft. We are incapable of rapid, mass deployment. A show of force is not within our power. Peacekeeping is all we CAN do.

 

So what...Red Cross with guns? It doesn't work that way.

 

I could rant about the various issues afflicting the military for a long, long time...but I'll stop there.

Edited February 6, 2005 by Sparq

[Matt]

Since the 90s, Canada sent troops to the Persian Gulf, Yugoslavia, Haiti, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and more. They were all dangerous missions. I don't understand why you don't want the military going to dangerous places.

 

Hell, Canadians fought in real battles in Croatia. See: Medak Pocket.

I would rather Canada fight in just missions than helping out in an un-just war. Sending Canadians troops to Iraq even now would say we condone the war, and I for one don't. The U.S. created this mess, they need to create a solution for it themselves.

[ecnarf]

Canada needs a strong, capable armed force which can act with or without the UN to do what's best for humanity. Certainly, UN sanctioned acts of force have a greater amount of legitimacy to many, but the UN has failed in places, too. Kosovo was a NATO action because nothing got done in the UN.

I agree with you there. I'm not a militarist by any means, but Canada needs an army that's self-dependent and capable of carrying out its own missions.

 

It's not a matter of sending troops into harms way, it's about doing the right things. Kosovo was about stopping a genocide. We sent troops with the U.N. to Rwanda, and there are several peacekeeping missions with the object of removing landmines and improving the quality of life, mainly in the Balkan states.

 

Don't try to confuse our pride in the military and individual soldiers (who are among the best trained in the world) with sending them into dangerous conflicts. It's not about danger, it's about doing the right thing. Is going into Iraq to give the Americans a boost necessarily the right thing? I don't think so. Sending troops into Darfur to protect them against genocide would be the right thing. Sending troops into countries to protect citizens against rebel groups would be the right thing to do, not sending troops into an already occupied country.

[no yu begin wher i end]

In the paper today, there was an article where Stephen Harper said he was having reservations about wanting Canadian troops in Iraq after touring the sub that had the fire (Chicoutimi, was it?). It's a little disappointing that this is the only reason he might not want to send troops to Iraq.

[summerbronze]

If you want to contribute anything to a war, getting troops out of the harbor is a bit of a necessity.

 

'Member when a ship left Halifax harbor, then because it was a piece-of-shit-ship, it had an electrical malfunction and caught fire, and then, again due to being a piece-of-shit-ship, the fire hoses wouldn't work and it had to come back with it's tail between it's impotent legs?

 

Like you NYBWIE, regardless of vitality of the army, I would hope reasons would still exist for not partaking in the war.

[Sparq]

We still kicked ass in that little Spanish fishing trawler invasion. : \

[jhark]

well it looks like they arent going

[thefutureisxrated]

The situation is now totally different than March 2003. Canadians were against the war. Well, the war happened and is over, and now there's a real government in Iraq which needs Canada's help.

 

I don't know what remote part of Nanuvaat you live in, but the war is far from over. And the "government" in Iraq is far from real. Insurgents are still fighting US Troops on a daily basis and cities such as Fallujah and Tikrit are still hostile combat zones. US Forces announce that they have a handle on these areas and then the next day, record amount of bloodshed breaks loose. The fact remains that there is a quarter of the country of Iraq that refused to participate in the elections and this minority will continue to take arms against occupying forces.

If the United States was serious about implementing a real government in Iraq, then the US would have delayed the elections until more stability was accomplished in the region. It is estimated that 60% of the voting population in Iraq turned out to cast a ballot. While that percentage is greater than the turnout in the US, it shows that there are serious problems in Iraq. The people of Iraq had not voted in over 50 years... One would expect a much higher percentage of turnout than 60% if this was the first opportunity to vote in 50 years. This percentage also doesn't reflect widespread voter irregularities that are being reported. How is the United States capable of directing an election in a war ravaged country when it can't properly hold an election within its own borders?

I am an American and I support Canada's decision to keep out of Iraq. America decided to jump the gun and start a war and now America should be left with the responsibility of fixing its own mess. I highly doubt that Allawi, the "leader" of Iraq, is a real leader. He is a former CIA Operative that answers to his paymasters. All this election served to do was to elect the framers of the new Iraqi Constitution. When Iraq holds elections to seat public officials, whenever this may occur, then we shall see exactly how stable the country of Iraq really is.

[Cherry Poppin' Daddy]

So, just to wrap up this thread: Yeah, Canadians do have experience training police in Haiti and could be helpful in Iraq, but fuck America and their mess.