Death Penalty For The Mentally Disabled.

[mrs jesus]

It neither makes it worse nor better.  "People should pay for their crimes" is not a criterion for what makes a society fair, in my opinion.  "We should hold ourself to the highest ethical standards," however, is.  When a democratically-elected government kills someone, its citizens must bear some of that responsibility, and to be honest I don't want that kind of black mark on my (for lack of a better word) soul.  It's no more acceptable for a government to mete out that kind of justice than for an individual to take matters into their own hands.

 

i don't feel like i bear any of the responsibility when someone is electrocuted* for slicing up babies in this state.

why would you feel that way?

are you saying that it isn't the government's right to decide that someone like dahmer should die for his crimes?

maybe i'm barbaric, or maybe it's my location, but i don't think that a person like that should be allowed to live, regardless of whether or not they spend their life in prison. if it isn't acceptable for the government to execute them, then what makes it acceptable for the government to lock them up in the first place?

 

Besides not supporting the re-instatement of the death penalty, which would be a collossal step backwards, I do happen to be in favour of abolishing the prison system completely and finding alternate methods of rehabilitating criminals and helping them make restitution where that is possible, and while I accept that in many cases it isn't, and some criminals are in all probability beyond rehabilitation, they must still be treated humanely.  In all cases we should strive to be enlightened beings.  Enlightened beings do not act out of spite or revenge.

however, i do agree with this.. i think it could work, not to mention free up some space in the prisons.. i don't know anything about the prison systems in canada, but there are a lot of problems with overcrowding in the us. perhaps they could take non-violent criminals out of the prisons and do something like this with them.

but murderers, rapists, child molestors... i'm sorry, man, i don't think they deserve humane treatment. no way.

 

 

 

*and by electrocution i mean lethal injection

Edited April 14, 2005 by mrs jesus

[calgarydave]

I really dont know what Bizud's complaining about. Recently people have been complaining about hte number of "Conditional sentences" that have been handed out, and were not talking only for minor crimes. Up to assualt and theft over 5k have had conditional sentences recently.

[Bizud]

i don't feel like i bear any of the responsibility when someone is electrocuted* for slicing up babies in this state.

why would you feel that way?

are you saying that it isn't the government's right to decide that someone like dahmer should die for his crimes?

maybe i'm barbaric, or maybe it's my location, but i don't think that a person like that should be allowed to live, regardless of whether or not they spend their life in prison. if it isn't acceptable for the government to execute them, then what makes it acceptable for the government to lock them up in the first place?

 

Good question. I would say it isn't acceptable, because I don't think the use of force on the part of the state is any more legitimate than the use of force on the part of an individual. When a democratic government acts, it acts on behalf of its citizens. It's all well and good to just think of the government as the benevolent overseer who can take care of those ugly things that "need to be done," like executions, but a democratic government is a creation of its citizens. The powers that it has are bestowed upon it by its citizens. So if my government kills someone, I'm killing someone.

 

however, i do agree with this.. i think it could work, not to mention free up some space in the prisons.. i don't know anything about the prison systems in canada, but there are a lot of problems with overcrowding in the us. perhaps they could take non-violent criminals out of the prisons and do something like this with them.

but murderers, rapists, child molestors... i'm sorry, man, i don't think they deserve humane treatment. no way.

 

It can't hurt. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

And Bizud you're not talking about treating humanily you're talking about abolishing prison. Therefore they have to be out and about in the general public

 

Actually, if you'll take another look, I said that while prisons should be abolished, those violent offenders that are beyond rehabilitation should be confined for the safety of the public - there's just no need for it to be done inhumanely.

Edited April 14, 2005 by Bizud

[mrs jesus]

Good question.  I would say it isn't acceptable, because I don't think the use of force on the part of the state is any more legitimate than the use of force on the part of an individual.  When a democratic government acts, it acts on behalf of its citizens.  It's all well and good to just think of the government as the benevolent overseer who can take care of those ugly things that "need to be done," like executions, but a democratic government is a creation of its citizens.    The powers that it has are bestowed upon it by its citizens.  So if my government kills someone, I'm killing someone.

but the government can't act for everyone, and if you don't agree with them, then how can you feel responsible?

if you think they are wrong, then you're not going to support them, therefore, you can't put any of that blame on yourself.

right?

i don't even know if this is relevant.

;)

[supercanuk]

WoW... okay...

This is a very eithical, moral, legal issue we are delving into here and its really touching nerves. Im not going to get into jurisprudence here or anything but for starters no matter the crime, the death penalty is never ever justified. I know people are going to say "well if it was your mother raped and killed would you want him dead?" and my answer is still no. I love my mother, dont get me wrong, but id rather let him sit and rot in a jail cell, death is simply too easy, its a way out of responsibility. Plus if anyone has ever been in a prison (yes i have, and no not for a crime) they are not happy places, and they are far from a cake walk. So i dont want to hear any bullshit about prisoners getting a free ride, they hardly have justice inside the cell let alone outside of the cell. Plain and simple dealth penalty is for nations who are barbaric and regressive.

[Bizud]

You claim that the death penalty is barbaric and regressive, but also say "don't worry, though, a criminal still suffers plenty in prison." ;)

[juanpe]

You claim that the death penalty is barbaric and regressive, but also say "don't worry, though, a criminal still suffers plenty in prison." ;)

yeah, I agree... it is a complete contradiction: you are not killing someone at once, you let him/her die in prison... i don't support any of these two methods

[Lauren]

i think the 'eye for an eye' concept is something of the past. and the past can keep it.

[TheKwas]

He's from Calagary alright.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? SHUT THE FUCK UP if you're not going to say anything relevant

Anger problems?

 

Don't worry, I'm from Regina, we should be friends.

[Bizud]

And now...a pretty picture.

 

 

In blue are the countires that have, for all intents and purposes, abolished the death penalty. The orange countries are the ones that, while retaining the death penalty in theory, no longer sentence criminals to death - capital punishment is abolished in practice. The yellow/green countries are the ones that have abolished the death penalty for crimes not committed during exceptional circumstances (usually during wartime). And the red countries are the ones which continue to sentence criminals to death regularly.

 

The pattern does not require pointing out.

[Munk]

I bet Djibouti stopped conducting capital punishment just so we'd finally notice them on that map. Fucking opportunistic cowards. >:C

[juanpe]

unbelievable that a country like the USA, supposedly to be "the country for freedom and human rights" is still one of the countries which support (AND apply) death penalty...

 

if I were an American, I would feel deeply ashamed of this

 

P.S.: Thanx, Jaded, for submitting that clear picture with the map!

Edited April 15, 2005 by juanpe

[Munk]

No prob!

[juanpe]

and as I feel proud of my country for NOT supporting and applying such a terrible "method", Jaded, feel proud of Canada for belonging to that group of countries which DO NOT support and apply death penalty ;)

[Munk]

One policy doesn't absolve a country of it's faults. Yay for not killing people, but Canada still has a lot of catching up to do.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Jaded Monkey™

[juanpe]

yeah, of course, and Spain is not "saved" as a wonderful country for many other things which are not fulfilled... but at least, one of the most terrible attrocities - in my opinion - of a society, death penalty, is NOT supported or applied either in your country or mine... and that is enough reason to congratulate ourselves for that ;)

[Munk]

By the way, Bizud was the one who posted the pretty map. But I'll pass your appreciation on to him.

 

 

semi-related article

Execution by injection far from painless

15:49 14 April 2005

NewScientist.com news service

Alison Motluk

 

 

Execution by lethal injection may not be the painless procedure most Americans assume, say researchers from Florida and Virginia.

 

They examined post-mortem blood levels of anaesthetic and believe that prisoners may have been capable of feeling pain in almost 90% of cases and may have actually been conscious when they were put to death in over 40% of cases.

 

Since 1976, when the death penalty was reinstated in the US, 788 people have been killed by lethal injection. The procedure typically involves the injection of three substances: first, sodium thiopental to induce anaesthesia, followed by pancuronium bromide to relax muscles, and finally potassium chloride to stop the heart.

 

But doctors and nurses are prohibited by healthcare professionals’ ethical guidelines from participating in or assisting with executions, and the technicians involved have no specific training in administering anaesthetics.

 

“My impression is that lethal injection as practiced in the US now is no more humane than the gas chamber or electrocution, which have both been deemed inhumane,” says Leonidas Koniaris, a surgeon in Miami and one of the authors on the paper. He is not, he told New Scientist, against the death penalty per se.

 

But Kyle Janek, a Texas senator and anaesthesiologist, and a vocal advocate of the death penalty, insists that levels of anaesthetic are more than adequate. He says that an inmate will typically receive up to 3 grams - about 10 times the amount given before surgery. “I can attest with all medical certainty that anyone receiving that massive dose will be under anaesthesia,” he said in a recent editorial.

 

Extremely anxious

The authors of the new study argue that it is simplistic to assume that 2 to 3 grams of sodium thiopental will assure loss of sensation, especially when the people administering it are unskilled and the execution could last up to 10 minutes. They also point out that people on death row are extremely anxious and their bodies are flooded with adrenaline - so would be expected to need more of the drug to render them unconscious.

 

Without adequate anaesthesia, the authors say, the person being executed would experience asphyxiation, a severe burning sensation, massive muscle cramping and cardiac arrest - which would constitute the “cruel and unusual” punishment expressly forbidden by the US constitution’s Eighth Amendment.

 

Koniaris's team collected post-mortem data on blood levels of sodium thiopental in 49 executed inmates. Even where the same execution protocol and the same blood sampling procedure was used, they found that levels varied dramatically - from 8.2 to 370 milligrams per litre. In other inmates, mere trace levels were recorded.

 

“Perverted medical practice”

If these post-mortem concentrations reflect levels during execution, the authors say, 43 of the 49 inmates studied were probably sentient, and 21 may have been “fully aware”. Because a muscle relaxant was used to paralyse them, however, inmates would have been unable to indicate any pain.

 

Ironically, US veterinarians are advised not to use neuromuscular blocking agents while euthanising animals precisely so they can recognise when the anaesthesia is not working.

 

People in the US assume that lethal injection is highly medicalised, and therefore humane, says Koniaris. “But when you look at it critically, it’s anything but medical,” he says. “It’s a perverted medical practice.”

 

He says the people carrying it out are unskilled, the procedure is not monitored - the executioners step behind a curtain when delivering the lethal drugs - and there is no follow-up to ensure that everything worked as intended.

[juanpe]

ooops, SORRY BIZUD... i hadnt even seen your name, i thought it was Jaded... ne ways, thanx for the map, Bizud ;)

 

Here's some links of

 

the typical methods of execution (with statistics and figures from how it "works" in the USA... sad, but true...)

 

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/methods.htm

 

http://teacher.deathpenaltyinfo.msu.edu/c/...ods/methods.PDF

 

US executions since 1976

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/usexecute.htm

 

History of the death penalty in the USA (up to 2004)

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/dpusa.htm

 

Death penalty info (main page)

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=8&did=245

 

 

:angry: got really mad getting these links and reading some of the things which are said in there...

Edited April 15, 2005 by juanpe

[calgarydave]

My friend, who lived there,

was telling me that in China when they execute you its with a firing squad. But then they send an invoice to your family for the bullets ;)

 

 

Lol sorry TheKwas didnt mean to fly off the handle. I was perscuted on an American board before for being Canadian and patriotic. (And pointing out certian falicies in american logic, and gloating that we're WAY better at them at hockey and lol other stuff I wont get into)

[juanpe]

My friend, who lived there,

was telling me that in China when they execute you its with a firing squad. But then they send an invoice to your family for the bullets ;)

wow, how "polite" and "considerate" for their families, right? gosh, things like this just make me wanna vomit... how cruel and unfair actions like the one u mention are...

[Moonlight_Graham]

one reason i don't support the death penalty (expect maybe in crazy extreme cases) is that the person is just relieves of his misery and doesn't pay back his debt to society.

 

I'd rather a murderer do hard physical labor digging ditches all day or building roads, than just giving him the needle. I say let the bastards sweat spit 12 hours a day doing in the hot sun for the rest of their lives. Sounds like more punishment than a needle.

 

Oh, and make them write out the entire Bible over and over again on their free time. Thats hell!!!

[calgarydave]

again dont get me wrong, I'm not a gun toting texan (sorry Ms. Jesus) and I dont support the DP in every case. Its just the odd one that comes up where I think its nessecarry, again for example Bernardo.

[Moonlight_Graham]

what about his bitch?

[ecnarf]

Its not about revenge, its about society stepping up to the plate and doing whats right by the victims families. Frankly we as a society puts FAR too much empahsis on the rights of the offender.

 

How do you think the family of those 2 girls feel, knowing that in a few months Homolka is going to be out walking around. Can you imagine if one of them ran into her at the supermarket.

 

I can tell you this, if it had been my sister, or one of my really good friends, the Bernardo and Homolka wouldn't have made it to trial...

Even IF we had the death penalty, Homolka would still be getting out of jail. You can go and thank those goddamned lawyers that let her get off with "manslaughter" (whoops, I just accidentally took part in the raping and torturing and murdering!) instead of the life imprisonment she deserves.

 

Remember what Ghandi said, "An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind."

[juanpe]

 

Remember what Ghandi said, "An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind."

you couldn't have explained better... that's the best sentence that could explain my point of view too

 

thanx for summarizing it so clearly