Triple E Senate

[Cherry Poppin' Daddy]

This was once an important issue for the Reform Party, but I haven't heard anyone talk about it this campaign.

 

Do you think more people would come out to vote if the Senate was elected, and had an equal number of seats for each province? The Australian Senate could be a good model, in my opinion.

[Matt]

Stephen Harper has said he would hold elections for ridings with senators that are leaving... However, the Senate in Australia is just bad, they have proportional representation which just does not work. All we really need to elect is the house because they have to pass something to have it become law anyways. People also don't like to vote too much here as is, so having more voting makes even less sense. Also beyond that say, for arguments sake, we have a Liberal majority house, and a Conservative majority senate or vice versa, it would be pretty difficult to accomplish anything if they disagree enough on a lot of the issues especially the social ones.

[ecnarf]

Democratizing the Senate shouldn't even be a question. In fact, the only question about it should be "Why have we waited so long?".

[josiegross]

i agree with ecnarf. i understand canadians don't like to vote so much, but in a DEMOCRACY isn't the core idea that the people run the country?

[Ravenous Yam]

I don't understand why people get all bitchy about voting. Like now, with the 'Christmas' election that people have been complaining about. Who gives a fuck? I want to express my political freedoms as often as i can. The general populace needs a way bigger say in the govt. Democratizing the Senate is an excellent start, even if the Senate doesnt have any real politcal power. The govt needs more accountability and more input and influence from the general populace.

[Cherry Poppin' Daddy]

Stephen Harper has said he would hold elections for ridings with senators that are leaving... However, the Senate in Australia is just bad, they have proportional representation which just does not work. All we really need to elect is the house because they have to pass something to have it become law anyways. People also don't like to vote too much here as is, so having more voting makes even less sense. Also beyond that say, for arguments sake, we have a Liberal majority house, and a Conservative majority senate or vice versa, it would be pretty difficult to accomplish anything if they disagree enough on a lot of the issues especially the social ones.

The Aussie Senate is working just fine. Not sure where you can get off saying it doesn't.

 

And, I would prefer if one party controlled one chamber, and another controlled the other. They would have to compromise, and no single party would be able to foist its agenda upon us.

 

Finally, I personally love to vote, so again, not sure how you can assert that people wouldn't like to vote for the Senate. It'd just be a second box to check. lol. Heaven forbid.

[no yu begin wher i end]

I think a Senate based on the American model would be most effective, where each state (in our case, province) has two representatives and that's that. I think it would balance with rep-by-pop. House of Commons nicely.

 

As well, to add to what was being said about different parties controlling different chambers, this is also similar to the situation in the US in the 90s, where the Democrats controlled the White House and the Republicans controlled Congress. The two had to work together in order to get anything done. There have been several politicians who've decried the current state of government there with one party controlling everything (Trent Lott comes to mind, on the Daily Show a while back), saying that better results and a better spirit were achieved by working together. Go EEE Senate!

[Matt]

Actually if Canada would like to remain progressive, we would pretty much have to keep our current system. Also I like to vote, but I know a lot of people who don't, and don't want to have to vote any more than they already do. However, in the nineties the republicans refused to pass some stuff because the democrats did something the republicans didn't like. Also, the Australian system is a forced system, it's not real democracy when everyone has to vote now is it?

[Cherry Poppin' Daddy]

So don't legislate mandatory voting. That has nothing to do with what I was suggesting...

[ecnarf]

I think a Senate based on the American model would be most effective, where each state (in our case, province) has two representatives and that's that. I think it would balance with rep-by-pop. House of Commons nicely.

Hardly.

 

When you consider that in the states, the fine people residents of Trailer Park, Alabama have a representation far disproportionate to your typical New Yorker or Californian or Texan, there's just nothing representative or democratic about having a flat representation in the Senate. Think about it - Toronto has several times the population of PEI, but why would all of Ontario have an equal say as PEI?

[no yu begin wher i end]

I think a Senate based on the American model would be most effective, where each state (in our case, province) has two representatives and that's that. I think it would balance with rep-by-pop. House of Commons nicely.

Hardly.

 

When you consider that in the states, the fine people residents of Trailer Park, Alabama have a representation far disproportionate to your typical New Yorker or Californian or Texan, there's just nothing representative or democratic about having a flat representation in the Senate. Think about it - Toronto has several times the population of PEI, but why would all of Ontario have an equal say as PEI?

There's already rep-by-pop in the House of Commons, so why not representation of equality? The point of the Senate in the States is to prevent any one state from having too much power in the federal government.

 

How is it fair that one or two provinces can hold so much clout in the federal government? How is that democratic?

 

 

California, Texas, and New York are three of the most populous states in America. They'd have far more representation than Alabama ;) .

[Matt]

It is fair though, the politicians are supposed to represent people by how many of them support it, and no that doesn't mean we should bring in proportional representation, our current system works fine.

[rebellious_L]

We wouldn't have to vote more often if senate elections were held at the same time as the general one. Senators would be forced to not retire in the middle of a term because if they did we could pass a law to reduce their pensions.

 

I say we just scrap the senate anyway. We don't need an old folks home of washed up "elite" to impose its will on the elected house.

[Matt]

The senate can deny bills, but so what, usually most things pass anyways, so it's not really a big deal. However, it still doesn't need to be elected.

[Cherry Poppin' Daddy]

If the Senate isn't elected, then perhaps senators shouldn't receive taxpayer money... they should be there voluntarily.

[Moonlight_Graham]

i agree with ecnarf. i understand canadians don't like to vote so much, but in a DEMOCRACY isn't the core idea that the people run the country?

i agree. And i don't think Canada's lack of voter turnout is much different than most other Western democracies. For those that don't care enough to vote, piss on 'em.

[josiegross]

It is fair though, the politicians are supposed to represent people by how many of them support it, and no that doesn't mean we should bring in proportional representation, our current system works fine.

if our current system works fine how is it that billions of dollars were pilfered from our pockets in the whole adscam thing? if the public had a voice in more of the goings-on up there in ottawa, wouldn't politicians be able to get away with less?

[no yu begin wher i end]

The senate can deny bills, but so what, usually most things pass anyways, so it's not really a big deal. However, it still doesn't need to be elected.

If they are not elected, then what right do they have to even represent us as Canadians in a democracy?

[josiegross]

For those that don't care enough to vote, piss on 'em.

i wonder if we could turn that into law? think about it.

[Matt]

It is fair though, the politicians are supposed to represent people by how many of them support it, and no that doesn't mean we should bring in proportional representation, our current system works fine.

if our current system works fine how is it that billions of dollars were pilfered from our pockets in the whole adscam thing? if the public had a voice in more of the goings-on up there in ottawa, wouldn't politicians be able to get away with less?

That was hidden from most of the Liberal party though, this was a select few that were in on it even, where as many other Liberals were kept out of the loop. Every party has it's bad eggs too. The N.D.P. has Svend Robinson who stole a ring that costed about $65 000. The Conservatives had Zeissman, who smuggled in an expensive car and lots of wine, not too long ago. It pretty much can happen on anyone's watch is the point.

 

As to the senate, why not have one last say before a bill is passed, it's just a chance to go over a bill once more just in case anything was missed in the House of Commons, but it doesn't need to be elected because they are more editors or proofreaders.

[ecnarf]

For those that don't care enough to vote, piss on 'em.

i wonder if we could turn that into law? think about it.

I was considering this yesterday while reading Maclean's in school. There was an article saying that the voting age should be raised to 21, just to teach 18 year olds a lesson that a vote is something valuable, and that when they've been waiting three extra years to vote, they'll have learned their lesson and they'll all get out to vote. Yeah, the article was really quite full o fshit, because they had a look at people that weren't going to vote in the first place and said, "Stop this idiot from the absolute certainty of him voting!"

 

The way I saw it, why not let people who give a shit run the country, and let everyone else stand in our collective shit? You can't say it isn't fair.