Communism...

[forget_about_your_soft_spot]

but couldnt one have a democratic government that behaves within the edicts of communism...ex: an elected government which practices the writing of marx....

 

you are still preaching communism as a system of government rather than an economic and social system...its like anti-capitalism...

No, because by it's very nature, Marxist Communism would disassemble and reconstruct our very capitalistic practices. Control of the means of production for the workers means that the business owners must *lose* control, and who will *vote* for the removal of their own wealth?

 

Everyone with a stake in the company, which means anyone in the upper and upper-middle classes (the bougeousie, shareholders, executives, people who may someday be promoted to executives, etc), would fight such a transition. And then what? The government's Communist-spirited reforms designed to empower the workers would be brought to a screaching halt by protests, or they'd have to be violently repressed.

 

Socialist Democracy (practiced in moderation by Canada, and many European countries), can be worked. But it is not terribly effective. State organizations are horribly inefficient in most cases, and uncompetitive. Russia's technology all but stagnated in the 70's. To a lesser degree, the Socialist democracies in Europe are having the exact same problem. The break-up of state monopolies, particularly telcom corporations, are an excellent example of this. The technology was stagnating, the costs were rising, and eventually the systems became gradually unworkable.

 

I'm sorry, but as an economic system, Communism (even moderate Socialism) fails as well. It simply cannot keep up with the monsterous production capacity of a capitalist economy where workers are a commodity, and therefore have very few rights.

 

I wish it wasn't so. I really do. I want nothing more than to experience wealth redistribution, social services and all of the other benefits traditionally associated with countries like (West) Germany, France, Sweden and Finland. But they are all falling to the more competative nature of unrestrained capitalism.

 

On a side note, one thing I think should really be ended is corporate welfare. It is the most shameful element of our capitalist governments, and generally does very little to provide job security for the workers in the long run. If a company is unable to compete and survive, it should die, preferrably before it lines it's unsuccessful CEO's pockets further.

 

Will

[Boond]

im begining to see a pattern here..."government doesnt work"...left wing governments deal too much on the people and not enough on the economy....the economy crashes...right wing governments exploit the worker and thus do everyone but the elite suffer...workers rebel economy crashes...middle goverenment functions but suffers from a weak economy due to legislation and unhappy people...things remain stagnant and nothing is perfect...

 

but lack of government is anarchy, which is so much worse...

 

 

humanity is fucked, eh?

[supercanuk]

humanity is fucked, eh?

Sure is!

[ToadMan]

The problem is entirely people. Supporters of communism must also believe that all people are type Y personalities. Supporters of fascism must believe that all people are type X personalities. When you believe that all people are a mix of Y and X then you must also support capitalism where people are rewarded on there own merit. The reason we all want to believe in communism is simple: equality. We all desire equality. Most of us are not rich, and no matter how hard we work, will never be rich. In it's most perfect form, communism would guaranty us all the same opportunities. However, as thoroughly establish, communism will never exist in it's most perfect form.

 

What we are left with is an imperfect capitalist system, where the wealth trend about the poverty line decreased exponentially generation to generation (this is a product of the lack of wealth being passed, and the increasing educational demands. Education demands money, lack of education predicates lower income).

 

Next you have a stay line just above low class where people neither increase in wealth, nor do they decrease. (This is a product of the fact that as wealth is increased, education to attain wealth increases, balancing the loop)

 

Finally you have the upper case, who's wealth is increased exponentially (This is a product of inherited wealth being coupled with increased income, where the inheritance pays or exceed education and therefor total generation wealth increases)

 

The average wealth the generation doesn't actually change but the differential between the wealthy and the poor does.

 

The point I'm trying to make, though rambling, is that in theory communist ideals would stop this trend, putting all people on the stay line. Ideally an economy would prefer to have everybody in the top curve, but that requires exponential economic growth. A palatable solution is to compensate all the persons who are dropping to the point of staying them. However, this is not entirely possible since as we have all observed persons who are on the slipping curve will not, on the whole, use support funds to stay. Neither will the take part in educational activities to better there income. This is on the whole of course, there are people that will try very hard if given the opportunity.

 

What we must find is a way of solving the trend.

 

Peace

 

btw, too long to proof read, forgive errors. Also my trend is very simplistic, and based solely off my own experiences.

[forget_about_your_soft_spot]

Wow. Now *that* was the best post this board has ever seen, and mine pales in comparison. ;)

 

Anyway, yes, I essentially agree with what you are saying. Any new or moderated form of government we attempt should focus on creating class mobility, not simply increasing wealth. It is not enough to boost welfare payments and simply be done with it. We must find ways to allow people with the drive and the ambition to pursue higher education to do so, preferrably affordably. We must not forcefully shift wealth, but attempt to create a situation where it would be possible for anyone with the desire to work hard and succeed to do so.

 

Apprenticeships, on the job training and vocational schools are all good ways, although they should be separated from normal learning education. The infection of high school with workplace co-ops, and the replacement of theoretical colleges and such with vocational schools are part of the reason for declining democratic interest and media literacy.

 

Also, some workforce mobility would be useful, and I think apprenticeships would be useful for this. We've got to make it easier for people to make career switches from things like salesman, web designer, etc to electrician, plumber, or farmer (and visca versa). We must also make the last category of jobs viewed more favourably than they currently are. This could decrease unemployment, particularly in sectors which are suffering a net job loss.

 

Anyway, I've rambled enough.

 

Out of curiousity, are you taking Economics at University?

[ToadMan]

Actually not, I'm an Electrical Engineer, taking a second degree in Computer Science.

 

I think you make some good points.

 

One of the thinks I think would help Canada is a paradigm shift away from the belief that everybody needs a university degree. If the job market was to reflect that skilled laborers from a technical collage are also valuable, and pay them accordingly, that would be a step.

 

My older sister is a veterinary technologist, which means she is an animal nurse, lab tech, x-ray tech, ultra-sound tech, and receptionist. She gets paid only $3 more than minimum wage. Persons in the human sciences in any of the above earn significantly more.

 

The point I'm trying to draw is that in my experience technical schools are shunned in favor of universities. The problem is, there are lost of people that would make great auto mechanics, but go to university because society tells them to. If we place people in trades, and environments they want to be it, they will thrive. As a society we have to accept and embrace that people have different skills and abilities, and educate them according to there skills and abilities.

 

I often comment that the reason there are so many university grads working at Mickey D's is that to many people graduated from that program. So why not allow people that maybe don't really want to do university to go to trade school, and grow the pool of jobs uniformly.

 

Peace

[forget_about_your_soft_spot]

Yes! Precisely how I feel about the subject. Although I still think University style education (conceptual, theoretical, logical, etc) is critical to the survival of a civilized culture. I think we should encourage more people to work in the trades (I'm about to make a shift from junior Web Designer for a Toronto magazine to electrical apprentice), but we must educate them from a young age to be thinkers as well.

 

(West) Germany has worked somewhat on this model in the past. The economy was heavily protectionist, and thus there existed a whole culture of vocationally educated, yet well-informed factory workers, carpenters, etc, who made about twice as much as their North American counterparts. Mind you, that's all changing, thanks to the *GREAT* (I slather as much sarcasm on that word as possible) global economy, which has shipped many jobs to former Soviet Bloc countries.

 

That said, the entire culture is pretty much apprenticeship based. My cousin is a pharmacist, and trained mostly on the job (if I recall correctly, there was a 1 year pre-apprenticeship education). Here, that's several years of University. She came out fully trained, with no debt (in fact, several years worth of wages), and an ability to train for something else if she wishes. No serious implications due to thousands of dollars "wasted" on a field she had decided to leave.

 

Definitely better than what we have.

Edited August 18, 2004 by forget_about_your_soft_spot

[Boond]

now would be a terrific time for a shift for people of my generation (nearing post secondary) to move into trades in Canada...most tradespeople in canada are babyboomers...my father being an example of this..and are on the verge of retiring...this means a vast wealth of unclaimed jobs for the taking...if i didnt enjoy the sciences as much as i do, i would take trade school for a comfortable job as an electrician or mechanic...furthermore old age nursing will be another area of demand in the coming years in the Canadian economy also due to the retiring babyboomers...however, one cannot trash welfare, a lot of people use it on rainy days...and in many regions of canada, especially on the east coast employment is only seasonal and welfare holds whole communities together through the winter...sure it is used as a crutch which should be dissuaded but for a lot of people its the line between starvation and getting accross

[forget_about_your_soft_spot]

"however, one cannot trash welfare, a lot of people use it on rainy days...and in many regions of canada, especially on the east coast employment is only seasonal and welfare holds whole communities together through the winter..."

 

Oh, I know. And that's perfectly fine. But it's a largely unproductive venture, in purely economic terms. If we could train those seasonal workers to do something else during the winter months, that would mean decreased burden on state accounts, and increased capital as a paycheque would be higher, and drive consumption, which would in turn help the economy in those regions. Which would have the added benefit of increasing input to the welfare system, and allow for increased infrastructure development, etc. It's that mobile and liquid workforce argument I made a couple of posts back.

 

That said, it's as much of a pipedream as fully functional Communism, so seasonal welfare is a good system, which rightly sustains those who are unable to work during a given season. ;)

 

Will

[Boond]

and for the record in the new foundland off season there is more road work done there than anywhere else in canada...in fact that little ilsand has some of the finest roads in canada and the least cars of any province in canada (not counting territories)

 

 

 

edit: for book club folks, i got this tidbit from timbit nation w00t!!!

Edited August 19, 2004 by Boond

[forget_about_your_soft_spot]

I did not know that... thanks for the interesting bit of information.

 

I shall look into the book. Is it a just a point-by-point list of trivia, or a 'real' book?

 

Will

[Boond]

its the experiences of a news paper columnist who in search for work offered to hitchhike accross Canada to find our national identity and whether or not we were just America junior...its very interesting and it makes me want to drive across Canada...i dont have the balls to hitchhike

[supercanuk]

I drove accross Canada! well most of it, from Ottawa to Salmon Arm B.C.... best experiance of my life, bar none. Leanred a lot.

[Boond]

yeah i plan to drive, bus, or train from the western tip of van isle to newfoundland...stopping of course at that city lauded in song and myth: Dildo, Newfoundland

[ToadMan]

Hitchhiking would make you experience more of Canada... but it's dangerous in these times of ours.

 

I might drive across Canada at some point... but I live in the middle, so that would be kind of hard.

 

Peace

[Boond]

fly to one side...rent a car...drive across (get one of those deals where you can return the car on the other side) and fly back to the middle

[forget_about_your_soft_spot]

Now that I've finally got a car that isn't thrice removed from it's original owner, covered in rusty freckles and infected with mechanical pneumonia, I too intend to drive across Canada. But first I must find this apprenticeship/job. Gas doesn't come cheap these days (unless you're American).

[Moonlight_Graham]

forget about your soft spot

& Toadman,

 

I agree with you both 100% about your thoughts on University. I'm 24 now. I got pretty good grades in high school, and people with decent grades i found were pushed towards attending University. It felt like all the "dumb" kids only went to college. Not a bad thing at all to attend University, but it makes little sense to take get your Bacholer (sp?) of Arts degree in something that has little or no practical application in finding a job in the real world.

 

University is great if you know what career you want to get into, but i have friends who have graduated with a Bacholer of Arts (w/ honors) degree majorying in *insert program here* and they are now still working at the jobs they were doing while still in school.

 

A BA can open a bunch of doors for people, like if they want to go into teaching etc. but for a lot of people it is a waste of time and money if you spend 3-4 years and $20-40 thousand dollars on education that ends up being rather useless in terms of getting a job/career. (plus being saddles with debt).

 

I attented University taking a BA and got good grades, but i quit before i graduated. I'm now likely going to go to a community college and get a degree in small-medium business management (Enterpreneurship) and i may start my own business.

 

In high school they should put A LOT more emphasis on getting kids to figure out what job field they want persue, and what specific jobs they may want. Then they can make more logical/practical choices on post-secondary schooling. I think some sort of career course should be mandatory in high school, which would enable students to travel to different businesses they are interested in and see if they like the jobs or not, like a semi co-op program.

 

P.S. Forget about your soft spot: you said you were going to go to trade school for electrical. My father is an electrician and owns his own successful electrical contracting business. He's hired many apprentices over the years. Its a good trade to get into. In fact i worked many summers w/ him and his guys. tough work, not my cup of tea, but offers a stable career.

[Sparq]

In high school they should put A LOT more emphasis on getting kids to figure out what job field they want persue, and what specific jobs they may want. Then they can make more logical/practical choices on post-secondary schooling. I think some sort of career course should be mandatory in high school...

We do have a mandatory career course here...I was in the first year they ran it, and it was idiotic. Since grade 7 or so, they've been doing little career survey things from time to time, and this was just a half semester of pointless busy work. My teachers mostly acted as if every last one of us was destined for university, to be a doctor, lawyer or engineer. While I agree that a career oriented course is a good idea, they've really got to reevaluate their current approach, so that it reflects reality instead of the idealistic pipe dream they forced down our throats.

[supercanuk]

I definatly feel that Sparq, I too went through the same stuff and there was a definate emphasis on university, it was really actually sickening.. Very much an idealistic pipe dream

[Moonlight_Graham]

well thats the stuff i'm talking about. I hate when the teachers or councilers try to influence your decision. I took those career tests too, they were ok. But nothing beats going to an actual place of business, checking out what they do, and see if you like it or not, or maybe seeing something that you've never thought of before as a job/career.

 

Anyways, back to democracy...i haven't read much of Marx's work, maybe i should. But i think Democracy works, and the capitalist system is flawed but it works. A big problem is the trend that people who grow up in a certain economic class usually stay there. Rich stay rich, poor stay poor. But if you work hard enough it can be overcome. My dad grew up in a measly working-class family, quite school with a 10th-grade education, went to electrical trade school, started his own business, worked his a$$ off for 25+ years and now lives a very comfortable lifestyle.

 

But today that is hard. Its all about education, and the poorest can't afford it. I think that any high school student under a certain financial bracket should be able to get a free decent university education as long as they work hard in high school and attain a certain level of grades. That would help the class problem a bit.

 

Democracy is a great thing in that the citizens can choose what kind of gov't they want, left-wing or right-wing etc., and then Province-to-Province and state-to-state people vote for different ways of social-economic living.

[ToadMan]

Your idea assumes something that is unfortunately not always true. It assumes that people in a poorer situation are actually interested in doing work to get out of it. Although we could site numerous examples that support your assumption, we can also site numerous examples that don't. I live in Saskatoon, and with out making any racial insinuations (since race has no baring on this), a large number of the poor people in Saskatoon are content to just collect there welfare and stay poor. Now a portion of these people are of native decent (I'm not bring this up for racial reasons, just follow), now native persons receive university education for a very low rate (I'm not sure if it is free, but very cheap). The point is, that even though they are poor, and can receive free education, they just don't care. I image that this would extend to any poor people if they where given the cheap education option.

 

Your suggestion is not without it's merits, for people in a poor situation that will fight tooth and nail to get out, your system provides them with to opportunity to.

 

With reflection on career path choices: This is not all bad, but the councilors, and school systems need to embraces the ideas of technical collages, and apprenticeships. Then actually guide students into there niche, as opposed to best fitting them into a university degree.

 

Peace

[forget_about_your_soft_spot]

Forget about your soft spot: you said you were going to go to trade school for electrical. My father is an electrician and owns his own successful electrical contracting business. He's hired many apprentices over the years. Its a good trade to get into. In fact i worked many summers w/ him and his guys. tough work, not my cup of tea, but offers a stable career.

 

Oh god. It's tough? Damn!! Why does everything I choose always have to involve work of some sort? :angry:

 

Out of curiousity, what sort of electrician is he? I'm looking to be an industrial electrician (the pay is slightly higher, and positions tend to be unionized). Oh, also... I don't suppose you happen to live in Windsor, Ontario do you? If so... lemme just send you my resume.

 

;)

[Boond]

I think some sort of career course should be mandatory in high school, which would enable students to travel to different businesses they are interested in and see if they like the jobs or not, like a semi co-op program.

 

 

in BC they are starting a new system in which they help grade 8s 9s and 10s figure out what they want to do, and help set them on career paths that get them the highschool courses they need...it is still vastly university oriented however, but at least now kids'll get the courses they need..

[Moonlight_Graham]

Toadman,

yes i think i've heard of that situation with the natives. And yeah that could happen to anyone really. There are countless people in this country who'd rather sit at home and make a career out of collecting unemployment/welfare than actually finding a job (including a relative i have). I say at least give these people the opportunity to get an education, and if they choose not to take advantage of it and live in poverty then so let them. As they say..."you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

 

But the thing that sucks is that for these people who grow up in poverty and/or bad households, sometimes they inherit the same lackluster work habits as their parents might have (not saying all poor people are lazy), and often the kids in troubled homes don't do well in school and/or their parents don't push their kids or care if they do well. This is a much more difficult problem to solve, since you have to get to the very root of the matter.

 

forget_about_your_soft_spot,

 

what sort of electrician is he? He does everything: residential, commercial, and industrial. However, he usually sticks to commerical and industrial work. Schools, high tech companies etc. Residential work sucks, because you often run into problem trying to get payment from private individuals rather than larger businesses etc. Going to court for small $500 payments isn't fun or economical.

 

Sorry i don't live in Windsor, i live in Ottawa. My dad isn't hiring anyways. But good luck to you. Yeah stick with Industrial and commercial stuff. The bigger the establishment(s) your employer is or does work for, the steadier and more work they'll usually get (and hence likely more $$$).