Student Newspaper

[supercanuk]

J specifically asked for this, but here for the general population is the newspaper myself and several friends have made online:

Click

[Cherry Poppin' Daddy]

Well, that headline makes no sense, since the provincial gov't doesn't have bombs.

[supercanuk]

Well, that headline makes no sense, since the provincial gov't doesn't have bombs.

Quite true the provincial government does not have bombs. What the title is meant to display is the disparity between military spending (which recently has gone quite high)and the increasing university fees in Ontario. We're protesting the war and the tution hike. If money(s) were allocated into subsidizing education or even subsidizing students instead of going to weaponds maybe we wouldnt have a need for our little paper.

Edited September 14, 2006 by supercanuk

[primetime_deliverance]

hmm.. all that's missing is the hammer and sickle ;)

[Sparq]

I'm on it. With you in five.

[mself084]

I never understood how the average student debt after 4 years is around $32,000. How the hell does that happen?

 

If you have a summer job, let's say you make $9/hour (probably a decent average...alot of people I know make more than that in the summer). That's about $5500 for 15-16 weeks of work. Couple that with the $8000 people are apparently spending each year, that's $13500 a year. Now, if your expenses are that high, you get a part time job... doesn't have to be anything special, maybe 10-15 hours a week just to cover your food and bills, maybe even pay your rent instead...

 

Even if your family is dirt poor (and that is rare with kids in universities now), they contribute to your education. And unless you come from a small town where there is no university within 100km, you should be staying in your hometown to go to school, unless you have a highly specialized program.

 

Sorry, I just don't get all this massive student debt stuff... if someone can tell me how they go $32000 into debt after 4 years (that's just an average too, I bet people go alot higher than that) I'm willing to soften my stance.... if not, a massive chunk of your education is already paid by the taxpayer, so quit whining.

[supercanuk]

hmm.. all that's missing is the hammer and sickle ;)

hahaha so true. In all honesty im the only one on the writing crew who isn

[mself084]

Erik - I guess I can understand that... but I think $9/hour and 16 hour weeks are the exception. I've never had a friend working that little all summer, and if they are, they take a different job.

 

On a related note, I think student debt is more associated to the unbelievable spending habits of youths, and not a problem of having to pay $4500 for tuition every year. I always hear of people going on crazy trips to Europe for 1-2 months... then when I ask how they are paying for it, they say "enh, i've got a line of credit... you only live once".

[primetime_deliverance]

(rant incoming)

 

You know, I used to think that way. I used to be the kind of guy who would feel bad for the girl you mentioned who couldnt' make it into Ottawa U. But when it comes down to it, she's probably just lazy and waiting for money to fall from the sky to save her ass.

 

I'm sorry but I really despise this notion of entitlement. People believe the goverment 'owes' them post-secondary education, that the government owes them a well-paying job, and all these other benefits.

 

So you can't afford school this year? Take a year off, work two jobs and earn it! Stop buying 24's and save your money. This isn't freaking utopia. Go out and work 50 hours a week, hell maybe you'll even get a boost of self worth from actually accomplishing something. And don't tell me there aren't any jobs. There are PLENTY of jobs available, you might just have to something that isn't your first choice! But nooo, that might just challenge you a little. From my experiences, people aren't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to live independently. If there's anything my parents tried to teach me, its that.

 

IMO its not a fact of not being able to afford something, the challenge is figuring out HOW you can afford it. There's always a way. When you resign yourself to the belief that its our fascist, evil government's fault you dont get your degree, you have failed yourself because you truly do not understand the reality of the situation.

 

ok, i'm done.

[mself084]

Here, here! haha... that was awesome - I agree 100%.

[garsk]

hopefully this will get posted before erik reply, but i will say this, nice review on the movie, and i am just going sit back and enjoy the educated argument here.

 

 

ps erik, i know you love to give out links to support your argument, but please make them short, i'm A.D.D.

Edited September 15, 2006 by garsk

[supercanuk]

Again, I

Edited September 15, 2006 by supercanuk

[garsk]

Again, I

[ecnarf]

Erik - I guess I can understand that... but I think $9/hour and 16 hour weeks are the exception. I've never had a friend working that little all summer, and if they are, they take a different job.

 

On a related note, I think student debt is more associated to the unbelievable spending habits of youths, and not a problem of having to pay $4500 for tuition every year. I always hear of people going on crazy trips to Europe for 1-2 months... then when I ask how they are paying for it, they say "enh, i've got a line of credit... you only live once".

People out here have been talking lately about how they saved zero dollars of what they earned in high school jobs. Someone mentioned how they earned about 12K throughout high school and spent all of it. Plenty of people 'round here are already in severe amounts of debt or maxing out their credit cards or what have you. It's scary. I've always grown up with my parents spending as little as possible (despite earning a very cushy income) so I'm rather well set from a financial point of view, both in the sense that my parents have a lot of money saved and that I don't spend very much money in general.

 

P.S. BOOZE. That's where the money goes.

 

P.P.S. As a university student who wants to join the army at some point to fund his education (either as a reserve musician or through the ROTP and on to becoming a military pharmacist) I find this... well, disconcerting, I guess. The military does offer some pretty damn good incentives for students these days. If you join the regular officer training program, you'll earn 16K a year plus having your books and tuition covered. But the money by itself isn't the reason I'm interested in the armed forces, and I'm going to be joining the health services corps in a non-combative occupation.

[mself084]

Erik - I find it funny that a socialist like yourself (I guess I'm assuming that - clarify your stance?) even supports Universities, as they have become nothing but job factories for capitalism nowadays.

 

I also disagree with this: "That said, I think a more just society would allow, especially those who say have an 80% average to get free education".

 

University in its original form was meant to be a forum for insightful and thoughtful discussion and research - by giving grades, we are doing nothing but demeaning this. Having been through 4 years of a social science program at U of O, I can safely say that any test I ever took, and any paper I ever wrote, was written with the aim of pleasing the professor. In such, every word I ever wrote was what the professor wanted to hear. Grades are just a way of having a large group of students regurgitate one man or woman's view on the particular subject. How is rewarding only those who do that the best (i.e. achieve over 80%) productive from a quest-for-knowledge standpoint? To me, that just helps contribute to the big capitalist machine.

 

 

Edit: P.S. Adam - Totally agree on the booze comment... Drinking every weekend in University was pretty costly. I know some people who spent their OSAP just on booze

Edited September 15, 2006 by mself084

[supercanuk]

Erik - I find it funny that a socialist like yourself (I guess I'm assuming that - clarify your stance?) even supports Universities, as they have become nothing but job factories for capitalism nowadays.

 

I also disagree with this: "That said, I think a more just society would allow, especially those who say have an 80% average to get free education".

 

University in its original form was meant to be a forum for insightful and thoughtful discussion and research - by giving grades, we are doing nothing but demeaning this. Having been through 4 years of a social science program at U of O, I can safely say that any test I ever took, and any paper I ever wrote, was written with the aim of pleasing the professor. In such, every word I ever wrote was what the professor wanted to hear. Grades are just a way of having a large group of students regurgitate one man or woman's view on the particular subject. How is rewarding only those who do that the best (i.e. achieve over 80%) productive from a quest-for-knowledge standpoint? To me, that just helps contribute to the big capitalist machine.

 

 

Edit: P.S. Adam - Totally agree on the booze comment... Drinking every weekend in University was pretty costly. I know some people who spent their OSAP just on booze

lol I do believe that i stated above that i am not a socialist. I

Edited September 15, 2006 by supercanuk

[mself084]

Oops, sorry Erik - didn't mean to call you a socialist. haha... my bad.

 

I agree with most of what you said - I don't agree, however, with 2 points:

 

1) University should be free. No it shouldn't... look at how much is already invested into post-secondary education. I'm not sure of the facts, but it's something crazy like 80-90% of your education is already funded by taxpayers... coming up with $4500/year isn't that hard when you work HARD for it, and not have a sense of entitlement to yourself. If University were free, you'd see more people on campus with the same attitude that rich kids have nowadays, and there would be no appreciation for the search for knowledge. Drop-out rates would be as high as high school (at least in Ontario) and higher education would just lose its value - it's even happening now, as a post-secondary degree is the minimum for alot of jobs now, and a masters is "the new college degree".

 

2) Universities open peoples minds to new ideas. I agree with that to a point... but not really. Let me ask you this: how many of your profs would you consider liberals/marxists/anarchists, vs conservatives/capitalists/etc? After 4 1/2 years at U of O, I can safely say that every prof I had in poli-sci hated George Bush, taught a curriculum that bad-mouthed American foreign policy, free trade, and any type of foreign aid, and was unwilling to have an open discussion about "the right" in Canadian/world politics, without belittling the ideologies that were different to their own. The fact is they were/are teaching liberalism to everyone at the school without giving conservatism and the other viewpoints a fair shake. I've had one prof in my life who's openly admitted that his department was liberal-biased (he was himself, but tried to teach more equally), and there is no desire for change. How is that a fair and balanced approach to education?

 

P.S. Great discussion - I like how it's staying on topic and open-minded!

[Azalroth]

Holy shit there's a lot of reading here...I only made it half way through. I'll personally be printing off the Agitator (looks like it's living up to its name eh?) and then reading it for some light reading at night, keep'em comin bud.

 

You keep writing and I'll keep reading!!!

 

Oh and you all can go suck a lemon, almost everyone I know takes care of themselves when it comes to college. Some of us want to do great in our Degrees and still be able to live life, hence the loans and not working part time while taking school. When you work during school that takes away time from studies and time from actually enjoying yourself while not under your parents rule. It's great to be on your own and being independant, I'm only 16K in the whole right now and that's 2.5 years of education...and I haven't worked during school...yet. I've worked my ass off during the summer, and sometimes it's NOT easy to find a job. In one summer I sent out hundereds (literally) of resumes (and they were great resumes) to jobs that I found, I walked almost every square foot of Barrie Ontario to find a job and ended up going to Brantford to live with my mom and work there.

 

So it's not easy, but it can be done without working during your studies. On that note...I'm out.

 

Cheers

[supercanuk]

Oops, sorry Erik - didn't mean to call you a socialist. haha... my bad.

 

I agree with most of what you said - I don't agree, however, with 2 points:

 

1) University should be free. No it shouldn't... look at how much is already invested into post-secondary education. I'm not sure of the facts, but it's something crazy like 80-90% of your education is already funded by taxpayers... coming up with $4500/year isn't that hard when you work HARD for it, and not have a sense of entitlement to yourself. If University were free, you'd see more people on campus with the same attitude that rich kids have nowadays, and there would be no appreciation for the search for knowledge. Drop-out rates would be as high as high school (at least in Ontario) and higher education would just lose its value - it's even happening now, as a post-secondary degree is the minimum for alot of jobs now, and a masters is "the new college degree".

 

2) Universities open peoples minds to new ideas. I agree with that to a point... but not really. Let me ask you this: how many of your profs would you consider liberals/marxists/anarchists, vs conservatives/capitalists/etc? After 4 1/2 years at U of O, I can safely say that every prof I had in poli-sci hated George Bush, taught a curriculum that bad-mouthed American foreign policy, free trade, and any type of foreign aid, and was unwilling to have an open discussion about "the right" in Canadian/world politics, without belittling the ideologies that were different to their own. The fact is they were/are teaching liberalism to everyone at the school without giving conservatism and the other viewpoints a fair shake. I've had one prof in my life who's openly admitted that his department was liberal-biased (he was himself, but tried to teach more equally), and there is no desire for change. How is that a fair and balanced approach to education?

 

P.S. Great discussion - I like how it's staying on topic and open-minded!

I totally agree great discussion! I am especially glad that we clearly have enough respect for each other not to get into that annoying belittling i often see on forums just because we disagree, i don

Edited September 18, 2006 by supercanuk

[Azalroth]

Not at 1am it isn't...lol. I'll read that post later on, got class here in about 20min

 

Oh yea, I'm going to print of a few The Agitator papers here in the lab, on all printer so others will pick it up...ah free advertisement.

[supercanuk]

Not at 1am it isn't...lol. I'll read that post later on, got class here in about 20min

 

Oh yea, I'm going to print of a few The Agitator papers here in the lab, on all printer so others will pick it up...ah free advertisement.

DUDE! Thanks! Tonight im distributing at Ottawa U 125 Simmard Hall (i think thats the spelling) and yah the free advertisement is very much appreciated!

[Spritzup]

Personally I think they should raise the price of tuition, while at the same time raising the quality of our public school systems. People should want to go to university, not feel that they have too go just to be successful. If the current trend keeps up, soon a university degree is going to be equivalent to what a high school degree was 30 years ago.

[ecnarf]

Personally I think they should raise the price of tuition, while at the same time raising the quality of our public school systems. People should want to go to university, not feel that they have too go just to be successful. If the current trend keeps up, soon a university degree is going to be equivalent to what a high school degree was 30 years ago.

This ties into the degree thread in open discussion: I think the high school comparison only applies to certain types of degrees from certain types of schools. If you're in a degree that required a high level of achievement in high school (this varies according to the faculty and school you were in), the weight it carries isn't necessarily lost just because a lot of people have university degrees. High school diplomas are truly one size fits all, and graduating with a 95 percent average taking all the hardest courses does not differentiate you from someone who took the easiest courses possible and graduated with a 51% average. University degrees differentiate themselves by the name of the school and the faculty you were in. An English degree from Lakehead isn't the same an an engineering degree from the University of Waterloo.

[Spritzup]

Yes, but how long is that trend going to last? While I agree with you, certain degrees and schools hold a certain weight in our society, having a university degree no longer opens as many doors as it used too. The fact that certain degrees are considered useless is an odd situation. It used to be that no matter what you went to university for, you were in demand. This was because you not only showed the commitment to get that degree, but you had something that most of your peers did not. This made you specialized and opened up alot of doors. This is no longer the case, as now most people are getting post-secondary school degrees. This does not and should not be the case. Alot of fields would see a greater benefit from on the job training (apprentice type programs) or technical high schools. Or better yet, take the quebec example and implement a cegep like idea.

[Azalroth]

I personally like the Cegep idea. I don't really know enough about this topic to contribute more than that, but I see the trend to Kirk (ugh I keep mispelling it Krik...)