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Erik - put spaces in your posts. I love you.

 

People need to stop bitching when tuition goes up 3% or whatever. Tuition is COMPLETELY affordable in Canada. Plus, it is ridiculous that people end up $30,000 in debt for an undergrad degree. Too many people booze up way too much in university.

 

And before anyone thinks I'm all rich because I said tuition is affordable, here is my story...

 

I had to sacrifice and go to college (not University like I wanted) out of highschool due to lack of funds and no support). I ended up taking time off and going back part time. Finally got back to Uni full time a few years back and I am now finishing my Doctor of Pharmacy at the age of 28. I convinced my parents to put up the house, sold my soul to Shoppers Drug Mart, worked my ass off and now I'm graduating with a debt of $72,000. And that's a steal. If I keep my deal with Shoppers, I will only owe $32,000 for my 7 years in school.

 

People need to learn that sacrifices need to be made and that life generally sucks and you can't get what you want. If life were fair, I would have been able to go to Uni out of highschool and would have graduated 4 years ago...it's not. Just a fact.

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"I convinced my parents to put up the house, sold my soul to Shoppers Drug Mart, worked my ass off and now I'm graduating with a debt of $72,000"

 

What was your tuition like Beth?

 

 

Erik: I think the main point I'm trying to make (and a few others here, too) is that a post-secondary education is already becoming the standard for employment nowadays. People used to come to university to be enlightened and learn and whatnot, but now university has become the standard for most employment opportunities. If you make university free, even more people will pour into the system, and the degree becomes essentially useless (well, not useless, but has the same merit as a high school diploma). If an undergrad program is free, the new standard will be a masters... once that becomes the standard, a phd will be...then what?

 

When you went to high school, did you take it for granted that your education there was funded 100% by Canadian taxpayers? Did you feel enlightened and want to learn? Did you appreciate the degree you were getting? Pretty sure most of us answer no to most if not all of those questions. This is what will happen if you make university free. If it costs money, you have to make sacrifices and work hard to go. Remember being a kid and your dad paid you $5 to mow the lawn? Didn't it feel that much better to go out and buy your transformer, knowing you earned it? Same idea.

Edited by mself084
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"I convinced my parents to put up the house, sold my soul to Shoppers Drug Mart, worked my ass off and now I'm graduating with a debt of $72,000"

 

What was your tuition like Beth?

 

 

Erik: I think the main point I'm trying to make (and a few others here, too) is that a post-secondary education is already becoming the standard for employment nowadays. People used to come to university to be enlightened and learn and whatnot, but now university has become the standard for most employment opportunities. If you make university free, even more people will pour into the system, and the degree becomes essentially useless (well, not useless, but has the same merit as a high school diploma). If an undergrad program is free, the new standard will be a masters... once that becomes the standard, a phd will be...then what?

 

When you went to high school, did you take it for granted that your education there was funded 100% by Canadian taxpayers? Did you feel enlightened and want to learn? Did you appreciate the degree you were getting? Pretty sure most of us answer no to most if not all of those questions. This is what will happen if you make university free. If it costs money, you have to make sacrifices and work hard to go. Remember being a kid and your dad paid you $5 to mow the lawn? Didn't it feel that much better to go out and buy your transformer, knowing you earned it? Same idea.

I completely know what your getting at. I just don't wholly agree hah, as per usual i guess :angry:

For one, people, id argue still go to university to get enlightened ( some go just to party, those who can afford it).

University has really become the standard for employment, i won't argue there, but is that due to education being more accessible? I am not sure if we can make that argument since we have nothing but our twenty or so years of experience with the education system and we weren't around in the 70's and 80' s ( except on the floor playing with transformers).

 

I'm still not fully convinced of the slippery slope argument that if we were to make education free then a master's would be the new standard and then if we made getting a master's free then a phd would be the new standard. First of all, that argument doesn't really hold weight. One reason for this, is that in say, Engineering, you only really need a B.A. to be one and get a job. A master's degree is basically unneeded unless your already interested in doing research, which is what you'd be doing to get your masters, which is already a totally different type of work then your average engineering firm to begin with. The whole idea of getting a masters and a phd is to push science, and social science further, to add to academia, and unless your already interested in that, there is no need to get a masters or phd. I can't foresee a business wanting all of it's employee's to be academic's as well. Of course, i am speculating here, and that's all we're really doing.

I didn't take for granted high school because i was reminded by my parent's pretty well constantly that they were paying for it, and i wasn't getting a very good education ( according to them lol ). I loved going to a lot of the classes that i still choose today to go to in university (anthropology, sociology, law).

I'd also argue, that if you want to succeed, since some employer's can ask for GPA's, that you have to sacrifice to do well in university to begin with. I mean even if university were free, you'd still be sacrificing your time with working on hard subjects that demand a lot of your concentration to do well. Instead, school takes a back seat for some students who need to pay rent, pay tuition, etc, and their grades generally reflect that. I had better grades when i didnt work my first year of university(took out loans ) then when i did work in my second.

The good work ethic definitely is important, but are we expected to do more then student's were even 40 years ago? I'd submit that some students are, and some students are not, but that doesn't mean that we necessarily have to put a price on education to make our own sense of self worth be valued by ourselves and our would be employers. I also don't necessarily think that making education inaccessible to some will make our education mean more, since some of the most ignorant, and idiotic people will just buy they're way through. Unless they totally and completely flunk out of course even after the probation. But anyway, you get my point lol ;)

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It really comes down to simple economics. Supply and demand. Over saturate the market and the demand becomes less, and people are less likely to pay for it. In fact Erik you set up the perfect example. A B/A in engineering stills carries considerable weight, mainly because it is insanely hard to get in and stay in those programs. Therefore you have less graduates, so companies are willing to pay more for them.

 

The same trend is happening in the trades right now. And now I'm getting sidetracked so I'll stop here...

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It really comes down to simple economics.  Supply and demand.  Over saturate the market and the demand becomes less, and people are less likely to pay for it.  In fact Erik you set up the perfect example.  A B/A in engineering stills carries considerable weight, mainly because it is insanely hard to get in and stay in those programs.  Therefore you have less graduates, so companies are willing to pay more for them.

 

The same trend is happening in the trades right now.  And now I'm getting sidetracked so I'll stop here...

I'd have to counter that engineering necessarily holds a lot of weight. My dad is an engineer and he sees all the new engineers basically being treated like peons by their employers because there

Edited by supercanuk
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Question: If the university becoming free leading to college degrees becoming devalued model is valid, is that what's currently happening in Ireland and Germany?

Thats exactly what i was trying to touch on in the previous post to my last one. Kid's from New Zealand seem to get jobs just fine with their free education, kids from Holland, Ireland, and Germany as well. My friend Katha from Germany (she was an exchange student for a year) told me about her education system, and it's quite rigerious, but it's also free. Again, if somebody wants it bad enough, i think that there ought to be no monetary bariers.

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Again, if somebody wants it bad enough, i think that there ought to be no monetary bariers.

Ok, say hypothetically university becomes free... are u saying its free for everyone, or free for those who want to work hard and appreciate it? If it IS free for everyone, how is it affordable? Anddddd... GO!

Edited by mself084
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Again, if somebody wants it bad enough, i think that there ought to be no monetary bariers.

Ok, say hypothetically university becomes free... are u saying its free for everyone, or free for those who want to work hard and appreciate it? If it IS free for everyone, how is it affordable? Anddddd... GO!

Was that a rhetorical question?

 

"If it's free, how is it affordable?"

 

The question is not whether it's free for everyone, but whether it is worth something to everyone. If the system is rigorous, then only students who work hard and want to get their diploma will achieve one. Even if they didn't get stellar marks because of how hard the program is, simply having that piece of paper proves that they worked for it, which might counteract the effect of too many people owning university degrees leading to a university degree becoming devalued.

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Whether we should be in Afghanistan or not is up for debate, however the increase spending in improving our military was definately needed because Canada's military had/has deteriorated into a broken piece of garbage over the last few decades. I support our country having the ability to defend itself & keep its soveriegnty without complete & total dependence on other countries such as the U.S. Having the basic military means to defend ones self & respond to domestic emergency situations (ie: Katrina-type disaster) is a must for any soveriegn country. I don't think our 40 year-old Sea King helicopters are up the task. Now whether we use this miliary abroad for peacekeeping means or in hot war zones like Kandahar is another debate entirely.

 

Education-wise, the big hikes in tuition fees should be slowed or stopped. However, free post-secondary education is ridiculas. I don't want to pay $30,000 for your education just so you can drink & party away 3 years of your life, so just take a year off & get a job. Scholarships are great though, & i would support a gov't program that would give free tuition or grants/scholarships to those poorest students who attain certain grades in high school (ie: 80% average). I support funding to those students who are serious about school & NEED the money.

 

Like it or not, Universities are now indeed job factories so free post-secondary school for everyone i don't agree with. If you want to educate yourself WITHOUT the goal of getting a job from it or worrying about the cost, go to the library on your spare time & read/educate yourself on any of the topics you can learn in an Arts program at University. History, philosophy, Shakespeare - you don't need a professor to learn this (though its fun to debate in class...but u can do that on message-boards & chat-rooms these days as we are doing right now - irony!).

Edited by Moonlight_Graham
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Again, if somebody wants it bad enough, i think that there ought to be no monetary bariers.

Ok, say hypothetically university becomes free... are u saying its free for everyone, or free for those who want to work hard and appreciate it? If it IS free for everyone, how is it affordable? Anddddd... GO!

Was that a rhetorical question?

 

"If it's free, how is it affordable?"

 

The question is not whether it's free for everyone, but whether it is worth something to everyone. If the system is rigorous, then only students who work hard and want to get their diploma will achieve one. Even if they didn't get stellar marks because of how hard the program is, simply having that piece of paper proves that they worked for it, which might counteract the effect of too many people owning university degrees leading to a university degree becoming devalued.

Affordable for the government/taxpayers, not for the individuals in school.

 

I agree 100% with Moonlight_Graham. Exxxxxxxcellent!

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Whether we should be in Afghanistan or not is up for debate, however the increase spending in improving our military was definately needed because Canada's military had/has deteriorated into a broken piece of garbage over the last few decades. I support our country having the ability to defend itself & keep its soveriegnty without complete & total dependence on other countries such as the U.S. Having the basic military means to defend ones self & respond to domestic emergency situations (ie: Katrina-type disaster) is a must for any soveriegn country. I don't think our 40 year-old Sea King helicopters are up the task. Now whether we use this miliary abroad for peacekeeping means or in hot war zones like Kandahar is another debate entirely.

 

Education-wise, the big hikes in tuition fees should be slowed or stopped. However, free post-secondary education is ridiculas. I don't want to pay $30,000 for your education just so you can drink & party away 3 years of your life, so just take a year off & get a job. Scholarships are great though, & i would support a gov't program that would give free tuition or grants/scholarships to those poorest students who attain certain grades in high school (ie: 80% average). I support funding to those students who are serious about school & NEED the money.

 

Like it or not, Universities are now indeed job factories so free post-secondary school for everyone i don't agree with. If you want to educate yourself WITHOUT the goal of getting a job from it or worrying about the cost, go to the library on your spare time & read/educate yourself on any of the topics you can learn in an Arts program at University. History, philosophy, Shakespeare - you don't need a professor to learn this (though its fun to debate in class...but u can do that on message-boards & chat-rooms these days as we are doing right now - irony!).

Wow. There's not anything in there that I don't agree with.

 

Particularly, scholarships for students with financial need. Making university affordable to low-income students will have a huge effect on the current trend of class stratification.

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i have 16 dollars in my bank account and 7 in my wallet. at the end of the year, i will be at least 12,000 in debt. crap.

Hey, you can always join the army.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I am fully aware of the irony)

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Universities are job factories? Hardly.

 

You can become qualified for a job, largely, by taking a professional programme (engineering, law, medecine, nursing, etc.), but, in reality, a basic bachelor's degree in science or the arts does not prepare you for a job at all. In a lot of cases, it won't even get you a job.

 

There's a seriously distorted perception that a bachelor's degree is the most logical step after high school for most people -- it certainly is not. If you want a job, you go to a community or technical college that trains you for a specific job track. If you want to be taught a vast, deep pool of knowledge by relative experts on the subjects, then you go to university.

 

These institutions were never intended to train anyone for anything, except scholarship; they are inefficient and inadequate as "job factories" for this very reason: they were not designed for hard-focused job training, and it is difficult to shoehorn them into that task.

 

I also don't understand where the irony is in this.

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BECAUSE THE ARTICLE WAS WARNING ABOUT THE CONDITIONS WHICH WERE GOING TO CREATE AN ECONOMIC DRAFT WHERE POOR COLLEGE KIDS WOULD JOIN THE ARMY NOT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO KICK SOME TANGO ASS BUT BECAUSE THEY NEED TO PAY THEIR TUITION.

 

Geez.

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Universities are job factories? Hardly.

 

You can become qualified for a job, largely, by taking a professional programme (engineering, law, medecine, nursing, etc.), but, in reality, a basic bachelor's degree in science or the arts does not prepare you for a job at all. In a lot of cases, it won't even get you a job.

 

There's a seriously distorted perception that a bachelor's degree is the most logical step after high school for most people -- it certainly is not. If you want a job, you go to a community or technical college that trains you for a specific job track. If you want to be taught a vast, deep pool of knowledge by relative experts on the subjects, then you go to university.

 

These institutions were never intended to train anyone for anything, except scholarship; they are inefficient and inadequate as "job factories" for this very reason: they were not designed for hard-focused job training, and it is difficult to shoehorn them into that task.

 

I also don't understand where the irony is in this.

I agree that "the next logical step after high school is university" idea is bogus for a lot of people. But why didn't my teachers & guidance councilors in high school tell me this?!? Why did they push so hard for university? I don't know.

 

A B.A. is worth quite little in terms of actually getting a job. But if universities are all about learning & expanding the mind, why do they have grades? Who the hell would spend $30,000 (or double that amount if you move away from home) for some education that you could get at a library for free?

 

If you're in anything but an Arts program, its still mostly a job factory. Engineer, doctor, basically anything to do with science, math, & business. People in Arts programs i don't think know what they're getting into. I didn't finish my degree & have thought about going back but i'm only really interested in history or political science, which doesn't seem worth the money to me. I'll probably end up going to a community college to get the skills i need. If i'm interested in history i can still go to a community college & get that knowledge much, much cheaper.

 

IMO teachers & high schools aren't telling the students what the real deal is & in my case they really pushed us towards university as if it was just the next assumed step after high school if you had good grades.

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