Putin's Administration

[supercanuk]

Africa is merely an illustration, one that shows that a people, given the right to self-determination, won't suddenly magically become this utopia where everyone is happy and prosperous. Yes, many if not most, of Africa's problems are rooted in colonial past, but many of these nations have been independant for decades and they're probably farther from the idealized vision of the future as ever. You're saying that a people's independance is 100% essential to progress and success, and that naturally, some sort of pleasant democracy results, which in reality isn't the case much of the time.

 

The American Natives are also often over-idealised and a poor example. Yes, they did kill each other like mad, particularly the South American native civilizations, and no, not all of them were conservationsists. In any case, their way of life is not really feasible in the modern day, nor is it desirable to most people. On top of that, the only reason why American Native society seemed to function was because there was no central government, a Pacific Northwester tribe would not have even known of the existance of say a tribe from Florida, it was unfeasible, impractical, and unnecessary for central governments to exist.

 

In the modern day, particularly in a nation with a history of violence and repression from both foreign and domestic influeces, taking away an authoritarian leader is not exactly a recipe for success. There are too many sets of interests, goals, plans that people are too willing to be violent about, so what you get is a chatoic mess again.

Where did you get the impression that I said everything would be fine? These things take a LOT of time, but the right path forward is independence. Nobody has the right to tell you how to live but you, and this goes for the national scale as well.

 

Of course all of these issues are extremely complex and both of us are simplifying this to a very abstract degree, but i am not saying that there are not other issues, just because i failed to mention them, does not mean i don

[HoboFactory]

At least it's more fun than debating heyrabbit, he seems to put forth only one post per day (although a lengthy one) in a given debate.

 

We sort of trailed off the topic of the Putin administration as a whole. I am just curious to see how history will judge Putin. You know, Abraham Lincoln was not at all a popular president during his rule. A lot of people thought he was war-crazed, there was a draft and all that after all, naturally the south wasn't too fond of him, and a lot of northerners really didn't give a damn that the south left the union and were just as welling to let the confederacy go. Nowadays he is regarded as one of the greatest, if not the greatest president in American history. History has a strange way of forgiving some and condemning others.

Edited March 13, 2007 by HoboFactory

[supercanuk]

At least it's more fun than debating heyrabbit, he seems to put forth only one post per day (although a lengthy one) in a given debate.

 

We sort of trailed off the topic of the Putin administration as a whole. I am just curious to see how history will judge Putin. You know, Abraham Lincoln was not at all a popular president during his rule. A lot of people thought he was war-crazed, there was a draft and all that after all, naturally the south wasn't too fond of him, and a lot of northerners really didn't give a damn that the south left the union and were just as welling to let the confederacy go. Nowadays he is regarded as one of the greatest, if not the greatest president in American history. History has a strange way of forgiving some and condemning others.

lol heyrabbit wasn't too bad, him and I had a lengthy discourse, of course it helped that we agreed with a lot of what we were talking about, but we had more critiques of each other.

 

Quite true Lincoln's official history is that he "freed the slaves" and all this. In reality, he never intended whites and blacks to be equal and he stated so, quite well documented that he was still a bigot. That war itself had all kinds of mitigating factors, again, history just is too complicated to make official histories like we get taught in high school, when one scrutinizes these individuals the picture often becomes quite different.

 

Putin is an interesting example, i don

[HoboFactory]

I suspect, in Russia at least, he'll be seen in a pretty positive light in the future. Sure it's probably an award as dubious as being the world's tallest midget, but Putin probably is the best leader Russia has had in the last 100 years. If he does step down in 2008 (and I do think he will) it's hard to say what direction the nation will head in afterwards. It's likely that the party and candidate Putin endorses will have the best chance of taking the wheel, but that doesn't mean the course of the nation will remain the same, just as there were significant differences between the administrations of the USSR's single-party system. The Russian Federation is still technically a very young country, not even two decades old, so it's hard to predict anything. I still have a a reasonable amount of optimism about the whole thing however.

[garsk]

anti-government protest

 

well, they had an anti-government protest against Putin, and pretty much arrested them all.

 

thoughts?

[KSU1986]

Berezovsky calls for Russian coup

 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/04/13...y.ap/index.html

 

We'll see what happens with Sunday's planned protest in St. Petersburg.

[HoboFactory]

I think the last little part of that article sort of gives away what Berezovky's issue is. Sure, in the virtual anarchy of the Yeltsin years, he was able to get wealth, influence, etc and act with impunity, now that his priveleges to exploit and rob the country are gone, he's pissed off.

[no yu begin wher i end]

Besides, civil disobedience is still disobedience.

[HoboFactory]

Besides, civil disobedience is still disobedience.

Because a call for a coup is civil. It's probably the worst thing that could happen if there's such a change. The nation has barely begun to rise out of the chaos of the collapse of the USSR, and there are calls for the current gov't to collapse also? Yeah, that'll be very productive. Anyone ever seem to notice that a lot of these protest marches are composed largely of Fascists and other political extremists?

 

Yeah, things would be a much better off if these people took Putin's place ;) :

 

[no yu begin wher i end]

Because a call for a coup is civil. It's probably the worst thing that could happen if there's such a change. The nation has barely begun to rise out of the chaos of the collapse of the USSR, and there are calls for the current gov't to collapse also? Yeah, that'll be very productive. Anyone ever seem to notice that a lot of these protest marches are composed largely of Fascists and other political extremists?

 

Yeah, things would be a much better off if these people took Putin's place ;) :

 

Do they not have the right to peacefully protest as well?

 

Clearly you didn't read the link garsk posted. The march was unsanctioned? Gee, I wonder why.

 

http://www.sptimesrussia.com/index.php?act...&story_id=20875

 

I thought Russia was a democracy.

 

I agree, Berezovsky is being extremely unproductive in calling for a forcible overthrow, but that doesn't justify the repression of peaceful protesters.

[supercanuk]

I thought Russia was a democracy.

That was your first mistake lol

 

Pavel and I have discussed this at length so it's no need to be repeating old diatribes; we just disagree with one another.

Russia though, I have to say, would be better off with a large scale social movement that represents the people - hell Canada and the U.S. would be too. I'd like to know if the entire group are actual communists or not though, id bet dollars to doughnuts that there are a lot of people in Russia who are not communists that want a real democracy in their country.

Putin is always described as "authoritarian" - I

[HoboFactory]

Incidentally, if Russia is undemocratic for their controls on protests, then so are the following nations:

 

NZ

Israel

S. Korea

France

Australia

South Africa

and quite a few other developed, democratic nations.

 

Additionally, how is it one can claim "the Russian police arrested them all" ? If there were several thousand protesters, and between 100 and 200 arrests, clearly most people went home that night.

 

Also, just a few weeks ago, there were anti-war protests here in Portland, and when a group tried to get past the area allowed by police blocking, many of these protesters did end up beaten and arrested. One can criticize Russia all they want because it's on the opposite side of the planet and disconnected, but it's hard to realize for some reason that the same critiques would be spot-on right here in America as well.

Edited April 18, 2007 by HoboFactory

[no yu begin wher i end]

So? Just because it happens in other countries doesn't make it right in Russia, which is what we're discussing. If you start another thread on those countries, then sure, I'll rail against them in there. The topic of this thread is Russia.

 

Also, I'm fairly certain that those other democratic countries aren't like this:

 

In the past year, political pluralism and a parliament capable of challenging the executive, which the authorities apparently saw as two major obstacles on Russia

Edited April 18, 2007 by no yu begin wher i end

[HoboFactory]

Actually the topic at hand is whether the West's criticisms of are Russia are fair, so the fact that many other countries do the same thing, and yet these are the countries from which criticism comes, then the conclusion is that the criticisms are probably not fair.

 

It would be like me bashing you for wearing ugly purple pants, if I were also wearing ugly purple pants.

 

Other democratic countries aren't like that, what about the good ol' US of A. They've been taking away all kinds of freedom and attempting to consolidate power as well, no? And looks at the 2000 election, even though it's fact the majority voted for one candidate, the opposite one became president... is that a model of democracy? The fact that current administration is losing a bit of hold is because of massive opposition. In contrast, Russia's current administration is a popular one in Russia, one that most Russians are apparently at least somewhat standing behind. And isn't democracy supposed to be about the will of the people? Sure the West is inclined to be sympathetic towards an "oppressed underdog" but these dissenting parties apparently don't even have 1% of overall public support, and many common Russians believe these protesters are "freaks who are wasting their time" as one young Russian woman interviewed on the matter phrased it. If these movements were popular enough, then there would be no possible outcome other than triumph for them, regardless of the opposition. But the fact of the matter is they are not popular enough, and it would take a hell of a lot for the opposite ever to become the case.

[supercanuk]

The U.S.'s levels of corruption and totalitarian values are comparable to Russia's.

For the record im not saying that any of these other countries are any better.

But that doesn't make what Russia does justified.

It is set by degree's though, and other countries are worse then Russia, and other countries are better then Russia in certain social aspects.

The west criticisms are just another way to get people to look the other way when they anaylze their own countries.

[no yu begin wher i end]

Actually the topic at hand is whether the West's criticisms of are Russia are fair, so the fact that many other countries do the same thing, and yet these are the countries from which criticism comes, then the conclusion is that the criticisms are probably not fair.

 

It would be like me bashing you for wearing ugly purple pants, if I were also wearing ugly purple pants.

Point taken, although I'd be willing to say that it's probably mostly at the government level, where officials are more cautious about making those kinds of statements.

 

Democracy is not solely about majority rule, it's also about protecting minorities. Besides, if Putin is so popular, why do the Russian authorities feel the need for the imposition of censorship, or why do they need to deny requests for protests?

[HoboFactory]

Point taken, although I'd be willing to say that it's probably mostly at the government level, where officials are more cautious about making those kinds of statements.

 

Democracy is not solely about majority rule, it's also about protecting minorities. Besides, if Putin is so popular, why do the Russian authorities feel the need for the imposition of censorship, or why do they need to deny requests for protests?

As the BBC put it (at least I think it was the BBC), the Russian government does it for "double or triple protection."

[no yu begin wher i end]

Do you have a link for that, or can you expand on it? Protection from what? Protect the stores and whatnot along the route? Unless they specifically intend to cause damage and violence, their right to peaceful protest shouldn't be impeded.

 

Also, you'll have to forgive me for throwing aside your criticisms of those other countries. The way this thread started out made it seem like the West was merely jealous of Russia instead of being hypocritical, to which I agree. The West is being unfair, but at the same time I don't think those criticisms are invalid simply because of who is making them.

[HoboFactory]

No, not like stores and what not... they meant double/triple protection for their odds of holding administrative power. It many not be a "good" answer, but it's the one they're providing.

 

My understanding however is that most of the arrests didn't take place until the protesters tried to pass through the police blockade. Odds are, the protesters wanted there to be arrests and such, because it would attract global sympathy for their cause, so there was probably no shortage of provoking.

[no yu begin wher i end]

Again, if they're so popular...

 

From what I've been able to find, several protesters were arrested before they got to the actual protests. If Reuters, Bloomberg, and CNN are to be believed, then the authorities were definitly unecessarily clamping down on the protests.

 

However, I think in the end we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You do have some valid points, in that there should be no double standards when it comes to criticisms of human rights. I agree wholeheartedly.

[supercanuk]

Plotting a new revolution, the fix is in, who killed Litvinenko?, undermining global security, independence for Kosovo

 

Berezovsky Threatens Armed Coup

Never one to shy away from the media spotlight, fugitive Russian business tycoon Boris Berezovsky announced late last week that he was actively involved in a plot to overthrow Russian President Vladimir Putin. In an interview with the Guardian newspaper which, was subsequently published around the globe, he claimed to be mentoring a rogue group of government officials seeking to forcibly dispel the KGB from the Kremlin. Questioned as to whether his intent was in fact to spark a revolution, Berezovsky left no doubt, replying

[HoboFactory]

Despite some of the bad press, BBC came out with an article today:

 

Russia's economy has accelerated during the first three months of this year, the country's Economic Development and Trade Minister German Gref has claimed.

Mr Gref estimated that the economy expanded at an annual rate of 7.9% in the first quarter of 2007, up from 7.7% in the previous three-month period.

 

Strong demand, and high prices, for oil and gas have been drivers of growth.

 

However, other parts of the economy were not performing as well and may present future problems, analysts said.

 

"There is still a lot of momentum in the Russian economy but it shouldn't be overestimated," said Gianella Christian, an economist at the Paris-based Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

 

He warned that once you discounted the effect of oil and gas exports, then Russia was growing more slowly than some of its neighbours, such as Kazakhstan.

 

Production

 

Even so, Russia's mineral-rich economy has still been showing signs of strength.

 

According to the Federal State Statistics Service, industrial production also rose sharply in March, up 7.9% year-on-year - beating market expectations of 5.6%.

 

Manufacturing output was 14.5% higher at an annual rate for the first quarter of 2007, steered by food processing, construction materials, and transport and power machine-building.

 

There also has been an improvement and a positive trend in investment levels, analysts said.

 

"The main feature of the first quarter is a new wave of economic growth acceleration," said Minister Gref.

 

Russia's economic performance has helped underpin its currency, and analysts said that while the rouble has appreciated, its strength to date has not proved a major obstacle to the competitiveness of domestic manufacturers.

 

President Vladimir Putin wants the government to press the central bank to intervene more strenuously in the foreign currency market should it appear that the rouble is strengthening faster than Russian industry can cope.