Musicians - The Music Theory Thread

[Ravenous Yam]

Every forum populated by many musicians needs one.

I can answer (almost) any question you have about musical theory, and i'm sure some others here are also capable.

[no yu begin wher i end]

What are the names of all the different modes of the scales (i.e. 2nd is dorian, 6th is aolian, etc)? Those are the only two I can remember.

[Ravenous Yam]

1st - Ionian

2nd - Dorian

3rd- Phrygian

4th - Lydian

5th - Mixolydian

6th - Aeolian

7th - Locrian

[no yu begin wher i end]

Excellent. Thanks, man! ;)

[heyrabbit]

I don't know anything about scales , except dorian, I think that's the one I know. so, where should I start? what are some good sites with scales to practice?

[Ravenous Yam]

The scales used most widely in rock music are the major pentatonic (scale formula 1 2 3 5 6) and minor pentatonic (scale formula 1 b3 4 5 b7).

 

Start with those, then learn the seven church modes (the ones i listed above) all across the neck (assuming we're talking guitar here). If you wanna keep going after that, then you can move on to the harmonic and melodic minor and their modes, and wholetone and diminished scales and many more. But that's later.

 

To see scale diagrams and to learn pretty much any scale you would ever think of (when you get to that stage), use the Scalculator.

 

Just find whatever scale you're looking for on the drop-down list (and yes i do know most of those), pick the key and press Scalculate. It can do a lot more than that too, but it'll definitely help here.

[heyrabbit]

(scale formula 1 2 3 5 6) and minor pentatonic (scale formula 1 b3 4 5 b7).

 

thanks for the info, but you'll have to explain what that means. it went straight over my head.

[Ravenous Yam]

Ok. I can do that. All scales are built in reference to the Major (Ionian) scale.

 

The major scale looks like this: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

 

The numbers correspond to the intervals in the major scale.

 

The notes of the C major scale are: C D E F G A B

 

So for minor pentatonic (the most common rock scale) the degrees are: 1 b3 4 5 b7

 

In C, that is C(1), Eb(b3), F(4), G(5), Bb(b7).

 

So whichever key you're in is the 1, and the scale degrees are figured out from the formula in reference to the major scale of that key.

 

A minor pentatonic is very common, and it you get it this way:

 

A Major (ionian) A(1) B(2) C#(3) D(4) E(5) F#(6) G#(7)

To get to A minor pent, you remove the degrees that arent in it at all.

A(1) C#(3) D(4) E(5) G#(7)

 

Now you flat the 3 and the 7 by one half-step each to get the minor pentatonic.

 

A(1) C(b3) D(4) E(5) G(b7)

 

Other scales are made in the same fashion, but with different formulas.

[no yu begin wher i end]

When building chords, say I have a C13 chord. Will I play C,E,G,B,D,F,A?

[Ruettiger]

I pinned this, as to not let it die.

[Ravenous Yam]

A C13 chord is C, E, G, Bb, D, A. Although you could include the 4th (F) and still have a C13 technically. But where you put B should be Bb, because it is a dominant chord. What you had was Cmaj13.

 

Also important to note, as guitars only have six strings, sometimes it is impossible to play all the notes of a chord (especially big extended chords). The notes preferred to be left out (in jazz, at least - its really up to you) are the root and the 5th.

 

Thanks for pinning this, Yasa.

[no yu begin wher i end]

A C13 chord is C, E, G, Bb, D, A. Although you could include the 4th (F) and still have a C13 technically. But where you put B should be Bb, because it is a dominant chord. What you had was Cmaj13.

 

Also important to note, as guitars only have six strings, sometimes it is impossible to play all the notes of a chord (especially big extended chords). The notes preferred to be left out (in jazz, at least - its really up to you) are the root and the 5th.

 

Thanks for pinning this, Yasa.

Thanks again, this stuff is gold ;) .

 

I play trumpet rather than guitar, so I learn chords to songs by building them one note at a time. Playing out of a Real Book, it's a good way to memorize tunes.

[Ravenous Yam]

No problem ;)

 

Trumpet is cool.

If you have any more questions, i'm here.

[Ravenous Yam]

Somebody think up more questions!

[no yu begin wher i end]

Very well.

 

What's a suspended fourth chord?

[Ravenous Yam]

Haha. "Very well".

 

Ok. A suspended 4th chord is neither minor nor major, but instead has a 4th in it in place of the (minor or major) 3rd.

 

The chord formula is 1 4 5.

 

Generally (although not exclusively) the suspension is used to carry over a tone from the previous chord in the progression. In this, a note from the previous chord becomes the (suspended) 4th of the new chord.

 

Example: Bm (B[1] D[b3] F#[5]) moves to Asus4 (A[1] D[4] E[5])

The D note is carried over from the Bm to the Asus4. Then, generally, the Asus4 would be followed by the 4th moving down to the 3rd(C#) or m3rd(C ) depending on the active key.

 

However, a suspended chord can be used any way you want in popular music, and does not have to either suspend a note from the previous chord nor resolve down to its own minor or major triad. Suspended chords used in this manner are used a lot in contemporary rock, especially styles similar to emo and the like.

 

There is also the sus2 chord, which behaves in exactly the same way as the sus4 chord, except is spelled 1 2 5. In the sus2, the 2 is suspended, and would resolve either down to the tonic or up to the 3rd. Most classical musicians do not recognize the sus2 as a real chord, opting instead to refer to it as a sus4 chord of a different root. Dsus2 (D E A) is harmonically equivalent to Asus4 (A D E), the notes are just in a different order.

 

 

And yes, answering these questions does entertain me; i like to test myself on my music theory knowledge as i am entirely self taught (never taken one music class my whole life).

Edited September 1, 2005 by Ravenous Yam

[no yu begin wher i end]

Excellent. Once again, I thank you ;) .

 

I love how I'm pretty much the only one making use of this thread.

[Ravenous Yam]

Yeah its good times. Like our own little private music party.

 

Their loss!

[MarketTomato]

I'm making use of it lol.....learning a lot about how chords work out....and why they have those names hahahah. But I'm doing more reading that writing.

[Ravenous Yam]

Cool, cool. If you have any questions, just ask.

[mrjones]

I'm making use of it lol.....learning a lot about how chords work out....and why they have those names hahahah. But I'm doing more reading that writing.

yeah me too. this is good stuff but i think my understanding of guitar isn't establised enough for complex questions...

 

Yam, what about any tips? are there any tricks you found along the way that you feel improved your skills as a guitarist/musician? care to share any? (assuming you play guitar)

[Ravenous Yam]

Yeah guitar is my instrument.

Let's see...

 

Mostly guitar is just practice, practice, practice. But it really helps if you listen to and try to integrate into your own playing as many different styles as you can find. And don't just settle for easy stuff either - try and incorporate really technical music styles into your playing, it'll really really improve your playing. Try some: flamenco, jazz fusion, 80's shred (Vai, Satriani, Gilbert etc.) - really just learn as much as you can. Jazz and classical are the most technically, harmonically, melodically, and physically difficult music styles there are, so try lots of various jazz styles, and some classical.

 

 

 

One of the biggest guitar-playing epiphanies i had was the application of notes and patterns together. This is kinda hard to explain, but i'll try.

Because the fretboard is pretty much a grid (totally different from most instruments), once you get the hang of it you begin to see how the notes connect across the strings in a very predictable way. All you have to know is the root note, and you can eventually see all the different chord, scale, and arpeggio patterns that build off that note all across the fretboard.

 

For instance, if you look at the attached picture (of an Amin arpeggio), you can see how if you start at A, the m3rd ( C) is always a specific number of frets and/or strings away, regardless of where the A is. Same goes for the 5th(E).

 

The patterns get kinda screwed up as they go over the G to B string transition, because they are tuned differently than all the other strings.

 

E->A(4th) A->D(4th) D->G(4th) G->B(3rd) B->E(4th)

 

The G-B screws up the patterns a little (the patterns are different, but they're still there), but once you get the hang of it, its easy. The patterns are hard to explain, and i've kinda been rambling, but the point is that if you know all the notes on the fretboard, you can pick any one as a root and build (eventually) any chord, scale or arpeggio with total ease, because you see it as a geometric pattern rather than notes on a staff, of fret numbers, or whatever.

 

Hope that can be of some use.

Edited September 5, 2005 by Ravenous Yam

[Disestabulistic]

Does anyone know the notes/scales that So What by Miles Davis, are based around? A friend taught me opening melody on piano, then I played it on Trumpet, but I can't realy improvise at all with it because I don't know the modes.

 

I can't believe that there aren't more people using this thread!

[no yu begin wher i end]

Trumpet! Right on!

 

Ok. So What is a modal piece (i.e. you solo on scales, not on chord changes. It's way easier to do it this way), so the scales you solo on (in trumpet pitch) are:

 

16 measures of e minor

 

8 measures of f minor

 

8 measures of e minor

 

You should get yourself a Real Book of jazz standards. It's great stuff.

[Disestabulistic]

Thank you very much, can't wait to try it out.

 

I do need to get a good book of trumpet music, most of my books are for piano, and I just transpose to trumpet. I have a realy good fake book of Thelonius Monk compositions, and most of them carry over pretty well to trumpet.