Musicians - The Music Theory Thread

[fantasticsteve]

Hey man, I might as well give this a go. I'm self-taught for guitar but have started taking lessons as I've reached a point where most things I can play at first look/listen, and the stuff i can't play is beyond. I'm starting out by brushing up on my theory, learning what makes up chords and stuff.

Well my question is: can you explain to me in layman's terms (as much as possible, i have some background in music so im not hopeless)how a chord is comprised of a 1st 3rd 5th? Like what exactly does that mean?

[Ravenous Yam]

The '1st 3rd 5th' is in relation to the major scale. All western music theory is organized according to the major scale.

For example, the C major scale is:

 

C D E F G A B (C )

 

From your question, the 1st means the 1st degree (1st note) in the scale, in this case C.

The 3rd means the 3rd scale degree, in this case E, and so on.

 

C D E F G A B C

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

 

I hope the formatting doesn't screw up the alignment, but it should work.

 

So for the major chord, formula 1 3 5, that means the 1st, 3rd, and 5th degrees of the major scale. In C, that would include C( 1), E( 3) and G( 5).

 

 

Even if it is in a minor key, the formula is still in relation to the major scale (not always the C major, but the major of the key you are working in).

 

For this example, an E minor chord has the formula 1 b3 5. b3 means 'flat-3rd'. Therefore, an E minor chord includes the notes E(1), G(b3) and B(5).

[if it were E major, the G(b3) would become a G#(3)].

 

 

*Note: It gets slightly more complicated when you get into 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths - that means they are in a higher octave than the rest of the notes. All you do to know which note it is for the higher numbers is subtract 7.

9=2

11=4

13=6

It's just a way of keeping track easier in the bigger chords.

[fantasticsteve]

perfect, I think I understand now. So in a G major...

 

G A B C D E F (G)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

 

so a G is all G,B,and D

fantastic!

 

ok here's another question (not totally sure if its applicable but i think it is)

 

Lets say theres a song that has a main verse consisting of Dm and G chords, going back and forth at an even tempo. What would be the complimentary chord(s) that could be played in the background on lets say a piano/organ for example. Would it have to be Dm and G as well?

 

if this is too vague let me know and ill try to narrow down what i mean more

[Ravenous Yam]

Close, the G major scale has an F#, not an F natural. The amount of sharps and flats depends on the key you are in. The rest of that is right though.

 

As for your question, it would almost always be the same chords played on every instrument. So, Dm and G over Dm and G. With scales and arpeggios, you have some choice, but when you start superimposing chords on top of one another, you get some weird stuff going on. Not to say it can't sound good, but it's much more difficult, and it totally changes the sound.

 

For instance, if you chose to play an A over a G, it wouldn't sound like A or G, but some weird chord thats halfway between.

Let's see...

A major = A C# E

G major = G B D

So you would get a chord that seemed to consist of G A B C# D E.

Which is a... G 6/9(b5). Or maybe an A11/G.

 

Anyway, my point is that playing different chords over another is kind of hit and miss. Not to say it can't sound good, but it's better to just stick with the same chords.

That was a really long-winded response, sorry.

[fantasticsteve]

No that helps for sure. I've been playing guitar for a little while but I'm now getting into songwriting, and while I can usually figure stuff out for guitar, when I fill up a song with something in the background it's hard to get right.

 

I'm studying for midterms right now but after this weekend I'll have some free time and be able to hopefully challenge you a bit!

 

thanks for the help thus far though

[Prometheon]

My band has recently been heading into a very jazzy direction, and I've never learned any sort of jazz drumming.

 

Does anyone have any song reccomendations that feature a basic or standard jazz beat? Or any tips for drumming styles/tips in jazz music? Thanks.

 

Edit: apply all of the above to Blues as well.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Prometheon

[no yu begin wher i end]

Top notch jazz drummers:

 

Max Roach

Art Blakey

Philly Joe Jones (you'll hear him in the Miles Davis group from the 50's. Albums like Milestones, Cookin', Workin', Steamin' and Relaxin'.)

 

You'll hear a lot of interaction between the drummer and soloist instead of the drummer just sticking to one pattern. A big part of jazz drumming is playing what comes naturally as the music goes along in order to compliment the soloist. A great way to learn is just to listen to as many recordings as possible.

 

One popular way to play jazz/blues is with a shuffle feel by accenting beats 2 and 4 in the measure. 1+2+3+4+, and so forth.

[Disestabulistic]

My band has recently been heading into a very jazzy direction, and I've never learned any sort of jazz drumming.

 

Does anyone have any song reccomendations that feature a basic or standard jazz beat? Or any tips for drumming styles/tips in jazz music? Thanks.

 

Edit: apply all of the above to Blues as well.

Your band sounds interesting, can you by any chance give a description of it and or post music?

[no yu begin wher i end]

http://www.musictheory.net

 

A friend of mine told me about this site last night. It's great for ear training.

[Prometheon]

Your band sounds interesting, can you by any chance give a description of it and or post music?

Sure thing. These ones are all covers, but we have about 10 originals so far, it's pretty cool. We just haven't recorded them yet. Our riginals are in a slightly different direction than these songs. They're quite acoustically driven and very jazzy/bluesey in feel and structure.

 

The lineup is me (Owen) on Drums, Matt on guitar and occasional backup vocals, Dana on lead vocals and either guitar, piano or trumpet, and Stacey on backup vocals, guitar, piano or bass.

 

These recording are from our first jam session together, so they're rather unpolished, but hopefully we'll get a few more recordings down in the near future and you guys can hear our orignal material.

 

Does He Love You?: http://s54.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1OQW4TK...YI2YPA3S6ZGP9CK

 

This one turned out very well, and I really like some of the fills near the end of the song.

 

 

Pictures of Success: http://s54.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3VP0MO3...0Y22U77R52RXLOD

 

I go out of time for a few seconds at one point, and the song feels a little boring in the middle, but the end picks up again if you can bear with it.

 

 

One More Night: http://s54.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=37WPIWY...5N282T00UKBKELZ

 

Slow buildup, awesome improved guitar solo at the end.

 

Taylor: http://s53.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1Q9K3SH...8N11EZDLYHW62WL

 

I'd never heard this song before, they just started playing it, and so the drumbeat is completely improved and quite repetitive, but I like Dana's singing, and it's quite a cool little song.

[Prometheon]

Psh, you ask for the songs and then no one listens to them!

[Disestabulistic]

You guys sound pretty good, some rough patches, but that's to be expected. Unfortuneatly all the songs seem to the same kind of mood. The singer seems to be a bit of a weak link. I quite like the drumming.

[Prometheon]

Cool, thanks. ;)

 

Though personally I think the singing is the high point. She's amazing, and hopefully it'll shine through when we do some more recording.

[Disestabulistic]

Cool, thanks. ;)

 

Though personally I think the singing is the high point. She's amazing, and hopefully it'll shine through when we do some more recording.

She has a nice voice, but wavers on pitch on almost every note. i think she could be really good with some training/practice.

[Prometheon]

Anyone have any tips for playing bongos? Just bought a pair, and they're so...different.

 

Also, my band finally has a name! We are....Lexicon Artist.

 

Fear:

[Disestabulistic]

Does anyone know the chord progressions for "On green dolphin street"? It's stuck in my head, and I want to play it.

[no yu begin wher i end]

Shit, I lent my Fake Book to a friend a while back. Here's a recording of it by Ahmad Jamal if your ear is any good (which mine isn't ;) ) and you can listen for the chords.

 

http://beta.yousendit.com/transfer.php?act...E1C691936A6F294

[heyrabbit]

Also, all of these shapes can be changed to their parallel minor form by flattening the 3rd degree one half step. What this means is that for an A chord (x02220), changed to an Amin chord is (x02210). Notice the C# has been flattened to a C natural.

 

I guess I have a rudimentary understanding of it all. the semantics confuses me.

 

I think where I'm getting confused is "degrees". what constitutes a degree? is it a full step?(as in two half steps) or is it a full step in the sequence of notes. does (7th note) the same as the (7th degree)?

 

 

the reason why it's confusing me is because I thought Em7 was 022030, the 7th note being D.

 

and (Dominant 7th for A) is, as you said, x02020, the 7th note being G.

 

-Major 7th (notated as Amaj7) (notice which note has changed from the original form and the Dominant 7th shape)

Amaj7: x02120

 

 

Minor/Major 7th (notated as Am/maj7)

Am/maj7: x02110

 

for those two, the added note is G#, which I don't understand.

 

 

where am I getting confused?

[Ravenous Yam]

A degree is a scale degree. All chords are formed from scale degrees, with a major chord being 1 3 5. (the scale degrees 1, 3, and 5 are the first, third, and fifth notes in the appropriate major scale, respectively.) In this usage degree and note mean pretty much the same thing, as long as it is taken to mean the whateverth degree/note of the scale of the key you are working in.

 

eg. A major scale - A(1st deg) B(2nd deg) C#(3rd) D(4th) E(5th) F#(6th) G#(7th)

 

Its just a bad way of organizing it, and unfortunately it became the standard. Whether it is a full or half step depends on which note it is in the scale.

 

As for the 7th chords, you are right about Em7 and A7. This aspect of musical notation is really just silly, so I understand the confusion.

If a chord is a Major 7 (like the two in the quote box), it has a natural 7th degree. If it is a Minor 7th, (like Em7), a dominant 7th (like A7) it is a dominant (flat) seventh.

 

A7 = A dominant 7th = 1 3 5 b7 = A C# E G

Amin7 = A minor 7th = 1 b3 5 b7 = A C E G

Amaj7 = A major 7th = 1 3 5 7 = A C# E G#

Amin/maj7 = A minor/major 7th = 1 b3 5 7 = A C E G#

 

Does that cover it?

[heyrabbit]

I see, so you flatten the 3rd degree to make it minor.. hmm, I think I get it.

[Paranoid Android]

Can anyone tell me how to form complex chords on a guitar( I know the basics)... I am playin jazz right now, i got all the basic sevnth chords down and know how they are formed, i am just having a hard time with chords like D flat seventh (plus 11).... anybody help? thanks!

[Ravenous Yam]

I have this posted on my wall:

 

It tells you what intervals are in any particular chord.

It doesn't give voicings or fingerings, though. It's a good reference, and good to learn from. (the 'j' in some of the chords is shorthand for 'maj7').

 

This site http://jguitar.com/chord works really well.

Just put in the key and type of chord you want, and it'll show you all the common voicings for it.

 

And since, you asked, one voicing of a Db11 is x 4 3 4 2 2

 

If you want just be able to form these chords from memory, learn the chord formulas in my picture at the top, and figure out which notes it would be for a certain key, then make the shape by finding the notes on the fretboard.

 

Does that answer your question suitably?

[strummer]

there is sooo much to learn... this is great. Awesome job so far lads.

[Some Random]

okay i have sort of a music theory question, i guess. i like playing the arpeggiated part of weapon, but without backing drums the chorus single note hits seem weak and i'd like to play the whole damn song arpeggiated. i don't know enough about theory (or really anything) to know how to fill out those single notes into the appropriate chords to fit the song. help please?

[bryce]

Without getting too crazy, if you already know the chords, just thumb around and find a pattern that sounds good using the notes already available to you (holding the chord). I'm not sure there is a right/wrong way to do it.