Cast Your Vote

[sockcrotch]

the "fuck you liberals!" thread inspired me

[wonks]

well, chalk one up for the liberals. though I expect a high number of NDP votes.

[Matt]

Add another vote in the poll for the Liberals...

[Bizud]

The Greens are corporate cronies who are happy to take votes from the left. The Liberals are corrupt, corporate cronies who are happy to take votes from the left. The Conservatives are corporate cronies, and also bigots. Bloc are separatists, opportunists, and statists.

 

The NDP are far and away the least evil.

[ToadMan]

Holy Crap! me an Bizud agree on something!

 

Peace

[no yu begin wher i end]

Yeah, the other major national parties have all had their runs at the head of the country. It's about time a third party came out ahead.

[Moonlight_Graham]

The Greens are corporate cronies who are happy to take votes from the left.  The Liberals are corrupt, corporate cronies who are happy to take votes from the left.  The Conservatives are corporate cronies, and also bigots.  Bloc are separatists, opportunists, and statists.

 

The NDP are far and away the least evil.

i agree. The NDP, like any tree-hugging group (that wasn't meant as an insult), honestly means well when it all comes down to it.

 

I just don't want them to take all my money. We have hardly any doctors left in this friggin' country because we have to compete with a free-market U.S. economy. I don't want to drive more of them out of here because of more taxes.

 

NDP is too much heart, not enough common-sense. (for me anyways). Conservative are probably the opposite. And the Libs are just crooks. So i guess we're all fucked.

[no yu begin wher i end]

Heh, go Bloc!

[Bizud]

Here's one idea to help solve the brain drain (actually a much smaller problem than it's made out to be), how about free tuition for anyone who puts what they study to use in Canada? It could be done in the form of "loans" that would never have to be repaid as long as you don't leave the country.

Edited May 6, 2005 by Bizud

[Matt]

Economically the N.D.P. would be terrible for Canada, their tax raises would hurt jobs, people would pay more for goods and services, and some people would be out of work because of it.

[Bizud]

Just like in other countries where social democrats have ruined the economy and raised homelessness...oh, wait...

[Matt]

Europe is a completely different situation, I hate to break it to you. Europe has a decreasing population in which allows more higher up jobs to go to people because there is less people to replace the people who were in those positions, this is commonly reffered to as a bargaining chip. Since that is not a choice the companies here have to face, they don't.

[Bizud]

Decreasing population is not a good enough reason for why social democracy can work in Europe, but (you think) it can't work here. A weaker labour movement, a spoiled-rotten business community and political parties that ignore the wishes of the electorate might be better explanations.

[Crusader]

Economically the N.D.P. would be terrible for Canada, their tax raises would hurt jobs, people would pay more for goods and services, and some people would be out of work because of it.

Province wise, that's exactly what the Liberals have done to BC.

[Moonlight_Graham]

Just like in other countries where social democrats have ruined the economy and raised homelessness...oh, wait...

Yes, Europe is a different story. They are social democratic countries surrounded by other social democratic countries.

 

Canada is a COMPLETELY different situation. We have the good ol' USA right below us and as our primary trading partner. The USA is a low tax, very capitalistic, very free-market society compared to Canada.

 

If Canada takes 50% of small business owners salary for taxes (like my father), but the U.S. only taxes a small business owner 25%....why in the world would a business owner want to stay in Canada? Why would someone on the global market invest in Canada rather than the US? How can the Canadian businesses compete with the US businesses? (ie: look at the Toronto BlueJays, they need to fork out about $100 million dollars to have a $50 m payroll because the low Canadian dollar + high taxes...and they must compete with the Yankees and Boston?).

 

As for the brain-drain, i completely disagree that its overstated. Have you ever waited in an Emergency Room lately? Have you ever tried to get an MRI? Have you ever moved to a new city and tried to get a family doctor?

 

About 2 years ago i was having health problems and i went into the Emergency Room. I had to wait 6 hours to see a doctor, and when i did see him he was just a university student about my age at the time (22)....then he sent me home & told me to take 2 tylenol because he thought nothing was wrong. The next day i was lucky enough to see my family doctor who ended up admitting me into the hospital where i would stay for 5 weeks.

 

My lifelong neighbour was also a doctor and he moved to the U.S. about 7 years ago and won't come back because he makes more $$$ and is taxed less.

 

So basically, what i'm saying is that you can't compare Canada with these European socialist countries. By geography, they are in a totally different situation than Canada. Everyone just isn't in its own bubble.

[Bizud]

First of all, its not like there's been a mass exodus of doctors, though many have left. Two bigger problems the health care system is facing are less funding, and more demand, with "brain drain" a distant third. And, as stated, it can be addressed with government incentives.

 

If Canada takes 50% of small business owners salary for taxes (like my father), but the U.S. only taxes a small business owner 25%....why in the world would a business owner want to stay in Canada? Why would someone on the global market invest in Canada rather than the US? How can the Canadian businesses compete with the US businesses? (ie: look at the Toronto BlueJays, they need to fork out about $100 million dollars to have a $50 m payroll because the low Canadian dollar + high taxes...and they must compete with the Yankees and Boston?).

 

All good points, which forces us to consider that maybe relying on business to drive the economy isn't such a great idea, if the only alternative is the slippery slope towards an American-style cutthroat capitalist society (and if it's not, what other possible alternatives exist).

 

Anything further I say at this point is only going to sound radical. Suffice it to say that I do believe we're fast approaching the point where we as a society are going to have to seriously consider how long we can continue to avoid the decline and eventual self-destruction of capitalism and property-based economics.

Edited May 7, 2005 by Bizud

[Matt]

The B.C. Liberals have made tough calls but the problems were there to begin with, they are trying to improve the situation so people can have what they want. The N.D.P. spent plenty of dollars but we never truly saw any solutions, the same problems remained. There was already a hospital crisis before the B.C. Liberals even took power. Sometimes for the situation to improve it has to become worse first.

 

Also Europe has the European Union as well which prefers to deal with other European nations in the European Union, so that also provides another reason why there is a different situation there. But in our society it is possible to recover from being a lazy student, or even being a bad work situation by the person working their way out of it. They can go to college, improve their grades enough so they can go to university and do something else with their lives, if they work hard enough too.

[sockcrotch]

all the parties have some good ideas on paper... but because of corrupt, moronic politicians we never get anything done

 

if all you want is a government that looks good on paper but crumbles when put into place then... COMMUNISM ANYONE?

[Moonlight_Graham]

bizud, yes the leaving of doctors is complicated by the fact that we have an aging baby-boomer generation which will put more strain/demand on the system. But we can address these problems with "government incentives"? Basically meaning letting them make more money, thus raising taxes?

 

All good points, which forces us to consider that maybe relying on business to drive the economy isn't such a great idea,

 

How do you drive an ecomomy without business?

 

I think my philosophy is that we still can have our social programs and not have a U.S. style structure, yet at the same time we must realize that, economy-wise, we're going to have to compete with the US. Canada needs to find a balance between our socialist and economic needs. If we go to far to the left economically its going to screw us up.

 

I also think that Universal Healthcare, as our system works now, does not work right and we need to tinker with it. That means more than just more funding.

[TheKwas]

if all you want is a government that looks good on paper but crumbles when put into place then... COMMUNISM ANYONE?

I really have no problem with communism in pratice or on paper.

 

However, Leninism on the other hand...

[Matt]

Well throwing money at health care won't neccessarily fix the problem, we have to figure out strategies which we best utilize the money we have and work on it from there.

[Moonlight_Graham]

These Marxist-Leninists......do they actually know the stuff Lenin did?

 

Maybe Marxist communism would work, but they need to add some checks and balances to the system to prevent dictatorships.

 

Also, maybe you could combine communism and democracy. Take the basic communism system, but let the people vote every 4-5 years or whatever on who to lead the country. That would get rid of the Castro's and Kim Jong Ill's (spelling = bad) etc.

[Bizud]

Command economies are extremely inefficient.

[Moonlight_Graham]

i feel bad for the Princess. How long is Mario going to bang her? ;)

[sockcrotch]

i feel bad for the Princess. How long is Mario going to bang her? ;)

that depends on how long corrupt governments are going to remain in power and continue to lead their blind citizens deeper into the dark abyss.... based on that I'd say that the princess is in for a rough plowing