Panhandling

[heyrabbit]

So the hot topic has been panhandling after a man in Toronto was stabbed to death by hobo(s). An altercation ensued after the man declined a request for spare change.

 

I can't speak on behalf of every city, but there's an entire culture of "homeless" con artists in toronto. For some people, it's just easier to panhandle than it is to work. Many collect money averaging over minimum wage and it's all tax free. A lot of people panhandle part time to earn extra money.

 

many of these people are addicts and or mentally ill, which makes the situation very complicated. I like to think that I have a keen sense for who's a con. whether or not they are cons, I tend to not give money because it enables them.

 

discuss

[no yu begin wher i end]

Wouldn't outlawing panhandling just clog up the legal system even more?

[Some Random]

i guess i don't really care. they ask for money and i say no. it is a piss off, though, when you get asked a dozen times, or twice by the same person, coming and going. i work a shit-job for my money, so i'm not giving it away to crack heads. or deaf, toothless mentally challenged guy on barrington street (monochrome knows who i mean), who followed me into a store one day, and spent all his hard earned beggings on scratch tickets.

[supercanuk]

If it were outlawed it's implementation would be laughable. How do you prosecute a homeless person? Throw them in jail. They would spend at most a couple days in jail and be put back out on the streets.

 

In fact, when winter starts they'd probably do anything just to get arrested, a warm place to sleep at night is worth quite a lot for the homeless.

 

I think to stop panhandling we should stop the circumstances which create it. I am not saying that everyone of these people are not con men/women, obviously some are just kids who run away from home and then when the harsh winter hit's they go back home. That said, a lot of them are mentally and/or physically handicapped and I think they should be put in mental hospitals.

Interestingly mental hospitals have had their funding slashed multiple times, some can't hold the amount of mentally disabled. Some went go to their families if they have any, others made their way to the streets or a jail cell. There is an entire phenomenon called "Doctors in blue" in criminal justice which has tracked, in Ontario especially, the phenomenon of police becoming doctor-esque to homeless people because the police know these people (some) have mental handicaps. It's a beautiful statement of the humanity of police officers who want to help the homeless but have their hands tied, they know the situation because they walk the beat everyday.

 

That all said, con men and women are making minimum wage, they are a nuisance, I don't disagree, but the homeless who actually need help must be taken care of. A society that treats its most weak and vulnerable populations with disgust, punitive and draconian laws like outlawing panhandling is a society which is completely separated from the plight of their brothers and sisters.

Edited August 20, 2007 by supercanuk

[Ravenous megin-sane]

it will never be outlawed. it's all some people have, and it would be too hard to differentiate those who really need it and the cons.

 

one time i gave one guy a toonie and some water and it looked like he was going to cry. he smiled, his eyes welled up with tears and he said 'thanks'. then i did the same thing and said you're welcome.

 

i was a little buzzed so i was like 'should i give him a hug?" but i decided against it and it was probably for the best.

[supercanuk]

lol probably.

 

I remember this tall homeless woman came up to me once begging me for a bus ticket, she was freaking out. I think she was coming down on drugs or had a serious mental disability which made her think someone was chasing her. Either that, or somebody was really after her because she kept saying that, so I gave her a bus ticket. She was so thankful you'd think I gave her a car. It can mean a lot to homeless or mentally disabled people with the smallest kind gesture.

[hum-an-ole]

It has been outlawed in my city (Moncton) for years. I'm glad no one's allowed to beg me for my hard earned money. I don't feel bad for the homeless in a city where there are so many opportunities, unless of course they are mentally ill

[Ravenous megin-sane]

it's not that easy.

 

there's a reason they're on the streets, it's not like they just gave up. they were forced to do it. there's a lot more behind it than just not having money to live off of, especially if they have mental disabilities.

 

i really don't think they're asking for too much of your 'hard earned cash' when they're happy with pennies.

[Some Random]

you don't sound cold to me, christing. this is canada, not india. there's plenty of social net. it's not a perfect net, but it's there. most people aren't forced to smoke crack or shoot up. shit happens, and anyone can end up in a bad situation, but clean yourself up, get to a shelter every night, eat at soup kitchens, deal with it, and get fucking help.

[heyrabbit]

If it were outlawed it's implementation would be laughable. How do you prosecute a homeless person? Throw them in jail. They would spend at most a couple days in jail and be put back out on the streets.

 

In fact, when winter starts they'd probably do anything just to get arrested, a warm place to sleep at night is worth quite a lot for the homeless.

 

I think to stop panhandling we should stop the circumstances which create it. I am not saying that everyone of these people are not con men/women, obviously some are just kids who run away from home and then when the harsh winter hit's they go back home. That said, a lot of them are mentally and/or physically handicapped and I think they should be put in mental hospitals.

Interestingly mental hospitals have had their funding slashed multiple times, some can't hold the amount of mentally disabled. Some went go to their families if they have any, others made their way to the streets or a jail cell. There is an entire phenomenon called "Doctors in blue" in criminal justice which has tracked, in Ontario especially, the phenomenon of police becoming doctor-esque to homeless people because the police know these people (some) have mental handicaps. It's a beautiful statement of the humanity of police officers who want to help the homeless but have their hands tied, they know the situation because they walk the beat everyday.

 

That all said, con men and women are making minimum wage, they are a nuisance, I don't disagree, but the homeless who actually need help must be taken care of. A society that treats its most weak and vulnerable populations with disgust, punitive and draconian laws like outlawing panhandling is a society which is completely separated from the plight of their brothers and sisters.

Yeah, it wouldn't be implementable, but that's like any other law. what it would do is allow officers, or whoever else, to give them an ultimatum and force them into the government funded shelters that we pay for with our taxes.(When you pay a homeless man, you're paying him twice). It would be similar to the law forbidding drunken intoxication. And even though I support the idea of outlawing panhandling, I think the whole idea of retributive justice and punishment is stupid. it's not only draconian, or bronze-age, but stone age! If you do something bad, I'm going to lock you in a cage! If you do something bad, I'll hurt you. etc. it stems from a degenerate, naturalistic culture which supports the notion that man cannot change. The system hasn't changed... ever, in civilization.

 

you're right about the mentally ill. I've worked around psychiatric patients in a hospital and later seen them on the street! that's really unacceptable.

 

one other thing. I don't think it's fair that we live in a society where unlicensed street vendors are prosecuted, but beggars aren't. if someone's actually offering a fair market trade of wealth, THAT's illegal. but if someone just wants something for free without working for it, that's okay. One thing I always do is ask the homeless person why they want the money. If they're so brazen as to ask me for free wealth, why can't they tell me what they need the money for? I don't even lend money to blood relatives or friends without an explanation, so I'm certainly not doing that for some random stranger who emotionally blackmails me.(it's an offensive position, begging) when someone asks for money, it's normal and appropriate to ask why. And what I find is that the homeless look perplexed. they simply want me to drop money in their hands, or if they're too lazy to extend their hands, they use a cup. they're not only too lazy to work, but too lazy to beg, which makes me suspect that they don't need the money, they just want it. my approach is that if they're destitute that need to bother me, then can tell me why. if not, then they proabably don't actually need the money. It's nice that you want my money, but I want your money, too

 

What I do now is when someone asks me,"do you have any spare change?", I always say, "for whom and for what purpose?". that usually ends that discussion.

 

or I'll say, "do you have any spare change?". that ends that too because they DO have spare change. they've been collecting everyone else's spare change all day

Edited August 20, 2007 by heyrabbit

[Muran]

It's hard to see these people on the streets, and working where I do, I deal with a lot of them over the phone, and it's really difficult to talk to them often. It's true, many of them are mentally challenged in some way. I hate that there was once a place for them to go, but they've been shut down.

 

I never knew how to deal with a person who's asking you for money, but our accountant always said "carry a couple apples in your purse and give them those." or simply say "Sorry, not today." So I do that when my bag is big enough.

 

My mum used to go into bakeries and buy a dozen siu pao (They're like, big meat buns) and give them to people who were asking for change.

 

On the other hand, they are SO pushy in the gastown area. They will follow you for *blocks* and won't take anything *but* money. One guy would not leave us alone and he kept telling me to shut up when he was talking to Kevin to beg him for some money. I wanted to clock the guy.

 

My boss is on the VPB (Vancouver Police Board) and he does everything he can to help these people (kinda sucks sometimes because if LSS doesn't wanna pay for their case, he'll sometimes do it for free...and that doesn't pay our bills O.o), but he says sometimes it feels like helping lost causes and it's frustrating. :/

[hum-an-ole]

I find it hard to believe that anyone is "forced" to live on the streets of Moncton, considering that many places are willing to hire pretty much anyone, because no one wants to work any of the minimum wage jobs around here anymore. If they appreciate my pennies so much, they why wouldn't they just get a job that pays significantly more? I've rarely felt appreciated by the homeless when I gave them my spare change, and have been harassed and mistreated by them more often than not.

 

For the most part that I've been exposed to, the "reason" the homeless choose to live on the streets is because they can drink their life away on other people's cash. I understand that someone who would make such a choice has probably had some rough times, but there comes a time in your life when you have to stop blaming circumstances and other people for your own problems. As I said, I have sympathy for the mentally ill, but anyone else should be capable of avoiding such poor decisions, and are choosing the lifestyle. I've seen people I went to high school with live on the street just to be rebellious

[heyrabbit]

you hit that nail on the head.

 

it's immoral, in my books, to give to the homeless, even though I do it sometimes myself. you just have to remember that every time you give to a homeless person, you're causing their homelessness. in fact, maybe we should prosecute people who enable the homeless. it's abuse in the same way that feeding fat children is abuse. cruelty...

 

This is the best solution I can think of: let's have the homeless register with the government and they can beg for free, anywhere in the city, provided they pay a fixed amount of taxes,say, 500 dollars a year. The rest of the money they're allowed to keep. if they don't pay, they're given 6 months to get a job or else they go to jail.

 

sound fair?

Edited August 20, 2007 by heyrabbit

[hum-an-ole]

Haha, taxing the harassment of civilized society certainly sounds like something the government would do.

[supercanuk]

I find it hard to believe that anyone is "forced" to live on the streets of Moncton, considering that many places are willing to hire pretty much anyone, because no one wants to work any of the minimum wage jobs around here anymore. If they appreciate my pennies so much, they why wouldn't they just get a job that pays significantly more? I've rarely felt appreciated by the homeless when I gave them my spare change, and have been harassed and mistreated by them more often than not.

 

For the most part that I've been exposed to, the "reason" the homeless choose to live on the streets is because they can drink their life away on other people's cash. I understand that someone who would make such a choice has probably had some rough times, but there comes a time in your life when you have to stop blaming circumstances and other people for your own problems. As I said, I have sympathy for the mentally ill, but anyone else should be capable of avoiding such poor decisions, and are choosing the lifestyle. I've seen people I went to high school with live on the street just to be rebellious

Edited August 20, 2007 by supercanuk

[Ravenous megin-sane]

i agree with you completely, erik.

 

also, i don't think their number one concern is going to be getting a job when they need to find something to eat inorder to survive.

[supercanuk]

i agree with you completely, erik.

 

also, i don't think their number one concern is going to be getting a job when they need to find something to eat inorder to survive.

thanks ;)

 

We're lucky in Ottawa, there is a great food kitchen and a lot of my friends work with organizations feeding the homeless. Some of my friends feed the homeless at "the mission" downtown on a regular basis. There are a lot of people doing good good work but it's not really enough to get them back on their feet or help them with there addictions and issues. The John Howard society does it's best for those with criminal charges against them and who have hit bad times, same with the Elizabeth Fry society and a few other women's shelters. Unfortunately a lot of them are fleeing men who beat them, and the survival rate of women who go into shelters is incredibly low. In fact I went to a talk done by Jane Doe (the woman who successfully sued the Toronto police for using her as bait to catch a rapist) who said that nobody she personally knew who went to these shelters survived. All the men in their lives tracked them down and killed them.

It's sickening to think of but the underbelly of a social system in shambles will do that to you.

 

p.s. 1/3 women in their lifetimes will be sexually assaulted, 1/2 physically assaulted, usually from a male close in their family, the safety of women in our society is paramount, so don't tell me women's shelters are not in need of funding and protection. This same protection should be given to the homeless who are men as well, because they too are at high risk of assault and death.

Edited August 20, 2007 by supercanuk

[no yu begin wher i end]

I find it hard to believe that anyone is "forced" to live on the streets of Moncton, considering that many places are willing to hire pretty much anyone, because no one wants to work any of the minimum wage jobs around here anymore. If they appreciate my pennies so much, they why wouldn't they just get a job that pays significantly more? I've rarely felt appreciated by the homeless when I gave them my spare change, and have been harassed and mistreated by them more often than not.

Is a minimum wage the same thing as a living wage? Chances are, if you're homeless, you won't be getting a home anytime soon making (in Manitoba) $8/hour, when many of those jobs aren't full time to begin with.

[supercanuk]

Is a minimum wage the same thing as a living wage? Chances are, if you're homeless, you won't be getting a home anytime soon making (in Manitoba) $8/hour, when many of those jobs aren't full time to begin with.

This is also true.

 

I haven't touched on this point but it's important to note that a minimum wage in Canada actually is not a living wage, not for the homeless whose job options are limited to day labour (at best) because they need a phone to be contacted at, and they are contract so it's not full time in most cases.

 

In general there has been a massive shift in our economy from good trade and skills jobs to service sector, part time, and contract, which provides for us a dim and scary future. If it continues we (as in our generation, Y generation) will see more hard times because we likely won't have the job stability our parents enjoyed.

Edited August 20, 2007 by supercanuk

[hum-an-ole]

I was in no way saying that there aren't homeless who deserve help, but that certainly does not justify harassing others. Was that not the initial debate? I'm not oblivious to the fact that there is a real problem with homelessness and mental disabilities, and that those people need and deserve help, but allowing them to mistreat others doesn't help anyone, and only gives other people who create their own problems another outlet to do so. Allowing panhandling only encourages an ineffective solution to yet another problem that our government is practically ignoring.

 

You raise some good points about the difficulties of finding a job Erik, but the scenario you describe is like the chicken and the egg. You can't get a job if you're homeless, but can't afford a home if you're jobless

Edited August 20, 2007 by Christing

[supercanuk]

I was in no way saying that there aren't homeless who deserve help, but that certainly does not justify harassing others. Was that not the initial debate? I'm not oblivious to the fact that there is a real problem with homelessness and mental disabilities, and that those people need and deserve help, but allowing them to mistreat others doesn't help anyone, and only gives other people who create their own problems another outlet to do so. Allowing panhandling only encourages an ineffective solution to yet another problem that our government is practically ignoring.

 

You raise some good points about the difficulties of finding a job Erik, but the scenario you describe is like the chicken and the egg. You can't get a job if you're homeless, but can't afford a home if you're jobless

Edited August 20, 2007 by supercanuk

[Ravenous megin-sane]

i think it's a case of starting somewhere.

 

if you're living on the street, regardless of the reason, education and careers are far in the back of your head. you'd be worried about eating, or finding a safe place to sleep. shelters don't take everyone, if they're full. shelters arn't always around. some resturant won't even serve the homeless, or "street people". they have no choice but to ask for money from others. and i would hardly call it harassing. yes, sometimes homeless people can be persistant but you really can't blame them when it's what they do day in day out and selfish fucks won't give up loose change that builds up in their wallet.

 

outlawing panhandling will result in nothing but voilence, desparation and deaths. crime rates will rise, taxes will go up, and the homeless will be fucked with no where to go.

[hum-an-ole]

If that is true Meg, then why haven't all those things happened to my city in the last 7 years? According to you and Erik, the homeless are already violent, desperate and fucked with no where to go

Edited August 20, 2007 by Christing

[supercanuk]

If that is true Meg, then why haven't all those things happened to my city in the last 7 years? According to you and Erik, the homeless are already violent, desperate and fucked with no where to go

Edited August 20, 2007 by supercanuk

[garsk]

as everyone said it, there is no way you can outlaw panhandling, but we figure out ways to get them off the street and into a clean place? since i live in Ottawa (like Erik) i am going to use it as an example. There is a shelter down near Ottawa U, I have passed it while working many times, and many of the people who live there just sit out in the sun, panhandle and smoke. It looks to me that many of them are not trying to get off the street, They see the (somewhat) easy money, and just stick to it. It looks like the just don't care.

 

Also, there is a lot of people that don't go to the shelters because it is unsafe. I don't know what kind of security they have in the shelters, but if we made it into a kind of prison, would it be better? i mean, if we could have video camera's watching them, we could see the violence inside, we could see the drug use inside. I am all for helping them get off drugs, which some of them are likely on, but if they are not trying to quit drugs, why help them? if they are not trying to get off the streets, why help them?

 

I know it is hard to quit drugs, i smoke so i can relate. But maybe tough love is what they really need.

 

 

Also, i try to hand out some change when i can, or when the homeless person has a pet.

 

but i will not hand out money when:

a, they are in front of the beer store or LCBO

b, they have better shoes then me

c, when i am taking my room-mates rent money to the bank "hey i love to help, but i need a place to stay too"

 

and final note about rent money, hey J, you do realize that you can spend the night here right? you have payed your rent.