Panhandling

[supercanuk]

garks, in all fairness, have you ever tried to ask them if they want to be homeless? Things are not always the way they appear.

[garsk]

erik, to answer you bluntly, no. but since you said that you have friends that work in the shelters, can i ask if the system that is currently in place is working? if not, how can we change it so it can? Your friends would know better then me, and i would rather see these people off the street rather then on it.

[hum-an-ole]

Things are not always the way they appear.

This could be an argument for both sides here. Garsk made some good points. Sorry, I generalized your point Erik, I was trying to respond to you and Meg at the same time.

 

I'm not just some ruthless bitch who wants to punish the less fortunate because I think they're stupid and not trying hard enough. I've already made it clear that I have sympathy for the mentally ill, and helping them (homeless or not) is a separate issue entirely. I'm speaking of the homeless who are mentally stable. Those are the people that are capable of taking steps towards a better future. I don't care what kind of circumstances you're up against, every human has the ability to do amazing things, including overcoming homelessness, especially in a country like Canada.

 

I never said that Moncton hasn't done anything other than passing the by-law in regards to homelessness

[heyrabbit]

I definitely never tried to imply that all homeless people were lazy, or that they weren't legitimately in desperate. They're desperate, but not necessarily for food or shelter. it's a complete fallacy, the idea that homeless are just trying to eat to survive, or even that they're the weakest members of society. What about new immigrants who come to the country with 10 kids and they're education is worth nothing, so they have to work 100 hours a week at a shit job. I don't know about you, but I don't see many skinny homeless people. I'd wager that they eat as good as the average middle class citizen, and they are definitely living like royalty compared to the third world. They don't do much, so they end much of their time eating, drinking and whatever else ( not unlike inactive people with homes).

 

no matter much a person is taking advantage of society by playing the victim, they're still people who are obviously unable of doing what's in their best interest. Even if you're completely acting homeless to make extra $$, there's something fucked up in your life. They all suffer, to one extent or another, from cognitive dissonance. That's why homelessness is much like an addiction or a disability. Their sense of life has been damaged. Their mood and cognitive abilities suffer,which affects their decisions and further ruins their mood. can you imagine the depression and psychological damage caused by sleeping in garbage? Upper class citizens can be in an emotional gutter. imagine how debilitated you could be if you SLEEP in the gutter. they need cognitive therapy.

 

 

with that being said, you're not helping a homeless person by giving them money. every time you give them money, you're causing their homeless by enabling them. What percentage of homeless people are going to starve, or even go hungry, if you don't give them money?

 

also, there's a big difference between telemarketers and the homeless. begging is extremely presumptuous and offensive. they lay an emotional guilt trip on you, and instill fear and anxiety in a lot of people. Nobody ever said to me, "I'm sorry to bother you, but I haven't eaten...", no it's "spare change?". I wouldn't even ask someone for directions without a bit of politeness. But to ask someone for the product of their labor, their means of survival, is really very obnoxious. It's really not much different than if I were to go up to a girl and say, "do you have sex?". I'm a 6 ft male and I'm uncomfortable around beggars. think of all the young females who are constantly scared into giving money. Some people have actually been convicted of robbery in extreme instances like that where a homeless person followed along.

Edited August 21, 2007 by heyrabbit

[supercanuk]

erik, to answer you bluntly, no. but since you said that you have friends that work in the shelters, can i ask if the system that is currently in place is working? if not, how can we change it so it can? Your friends would know better then me, and i would rather see these people off the street rather then on it.

Yah actually I should ask them, my girlfriends mother goes every tuesday to feed the homeless at the mission. I'll have to ask her.

 

heyrabbit you make some valid points, of course each case is different and like I said not all homeless people are grade "A" people. And don't even get my started on how we exploit immigrant communities, although I see you already agree.

 

Christing I didn't intend to make you feel like a ruthless bitch, if I in any way came across that way im sorry, sometimes the way I write things can sound really harsh.

I have known a few homeless people, some of them whose family told them to get out, some of them women who ended up with asshole guys because they didn't really have anywhere to turn, and some whose families took them back in, thankfully.

 

I agree that the issue is not black and white, and basically that is what i've been trying to argue. So no need to retort, we all disagree on some areas and agree on others, and right now its almost 1am and I am too tired to get into detail ;)

 

Good talk folks :angry:

[HoboFactory]

I have very little sympathy for most homeless people. For one thing, it seems to be that most of them smoke and drink a hell of lot. I would think if they really did want to lead better lives, very expensive habits that only decrease their odds of a better life, would be habits they would probably try to do without. If one can barely get enough food to survive, and yet somehow alcohol, cigarettes, and other drugs are plentiful, then it seems... it often does come down to bad decisions. Yes, I know that some of them are disabled, and the odds of them "making it" are extremely low, but most of the ones I've seen appear to be perfectly capable of earning at least a moderate wage if they'd make the effort. I've been around the homeless plenty, I've ridden on trains for hours, where they'd congregate, and I'd listen to them talk amongs themselves. Many of them are relatively young (around mid 20's to high 30's) and just from hearing them talk, you can tell they're not mentally handicapped in a way that renders them incapable of work. One doesn't necessarily even need a good education, my brother's highest educational achievement thus far is his high school diploma, and yet he makes around 50,000 USD per year. My girlfriend's father didn't even finish high school, and yet he runs his own successful business (mind you, he also came to this country without so much as speaking English and also without a home of his own). I would guess that homelessness could be cut in half if people genuinely made the effort.

Edited August 21, 2007 by HoboFactory

[Sparq]

1: The problem is too complex and widespread to be solved simply, easily, or quickly.

 

2: The problem is a symptom of societal pressure which is, in general, fluid but has a life of it's own. It cannot be controlled, only guided, and only slightly, and only sometimes.

 

3: I expect that the problem will get much, much worse before it gets better. If it ever gets better. I can't see a way out of this population death-spiral.

 

4: That said, no, they should not ban panhandling because some guy got stabbed in a dispute related to it. That's knee-jerk, reactionary idiocy.

 

Welcome to the pessimist's view.

 

Edit: Potentially the lazy pessimist. Whether I think there's no solution legitimately or just because it's too hard is open for debate.

Edited August 21, 2007 by Sparq

[HoboFactory]

...I don't know about you, but I don't see many skinny homeless people. I'd wager that they eat as good as the average middle class citizen...

I'll say!

 

[hum-an-ole]

Christing I didn't intend to make you feel like a ruthless bitch, if I in any way came across that way im sorry, sometimes the way I write things can sound really harsh.

 

(

[Azalroth]

Way to lazy this morning to read ALL three pages so here's my opinion:

 

I don't think it should be outlawed because some people just have bad luck, sure there are cons and what not out there but the same is true about any *cough* Politician but you don't see anyone talking about outlawing them. The panhandlers (might have the wrong word for this) that I don't mind giving money to are the ones that are doing something to earn it, aka playing guitar, sideshow tricks, drawings, singing, etc. They are entertaining and artistic which is awesome

[no yu begin wher i end]

Those are buskers, not panhandlers. And I agree. They're awesome.

[Azalroth]

Ehhh kinda the same thing

 

Hey...wait a tick...why are beggars called "panhandlers" anyway...I've never seen any of them holding a pan, or even handling pans in anyway.

[garsk]

I'm not just some ruthless bitch who wants to punish the less fortunate because I think they're stupid and not trying hard enough.

well my original idea for my post was to say that we should uses their organs to pro-long the lives of our important corporate leaders. But i decided to go more with a "liberal" idea. Trust me, Erik knows i am a heartless capitalist right-winged bastard, lol.

[heyrabbit]

don't listen to the anti-capitalist propaganda.

 

<-----

 

I <3 capitalism

Edited August 22, 2007 by heyrabbit

[Moonlight_Graham]

tough call, i just don't know. I wouldn't give a homeless person money anyways since i know a lot of them would go spend it on booze or drugs. I'd give them food or a blanket or something.

 

My sister lives in downtown Toronto & its really sad, with homeless just sleeping on her street corner outside her apartment building. Many of these people are mentally ill or addicts & need help.

 

As hard as it is, i'd make it law to get these people off the streets & on schizophrenia medication or detox or whatever they need. Maybe some of them even should be put away in a mental institution if its a public safety concern.

[garsk]

down near the eaton center there is the sticker lady, she is a con artist, she is "raising money for herself" but she has a very nice house.

[heyrabbit]

and the shaky lady, but she got found out so she moved to quebec

[beerman37]

Too lazy to go thru the pages here, but WHAT a pain in the ass these people are in center City Philadelphia. Its somewhat on the touristy side (Liberty bell is here, Betsy Ross' house, etc) and they just torment the fuck out of people. I tell the same people no day in and day out. Ugh

[supercanuk]

As an aside, that story of a girl i gave bus tickets to wasn't actually homeless (that i know of) but turns out she's a hooker!

[Moonlight_Graham]

The homeless fight for the good street corners in Toronto. So its obviously not that great for them either. I didn't realize that Harris outlawed panhandling in Ontario. Good because those squeegeee kids were annoying.

 

 

p.s. My dad told me today that some "homeless" can get $100 a day from panhandling. thats some nice tax-free income

[Prometheon]

Meg: That was a really sweet story. I've also had nopthing but positive experiances giving to homeless people.

 

I used to be extremely existentialist about things like homelessness and obesity ("get a job!" "stop eating!") but the reality of these situations (in a lot of cases) is that it isn't as simple as waking up one morning and just getting a job. Mental illness is rampant among the homeless due to the revolving door system that exists in the psychological treatment programs of many major cities.

 

Also, the argument that "lots of panhandlers are fakers!" holds no water. Should we stop sending police and counselors to people who phone 9-1-1 or suicide hotlines just because some of them are only doing it for attention?

 

Edit: Shit. I only read page 1, so if any of this has already been addressed, my bad.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Prometheon

[Bizud]

I agree. There's a lot of classism here. When we realize that homelessness is a social problem, not a private trouble, maybe things will change. The compassion of a society must be measured by the treatment of its most vulnerable members. In a country as fucking rich as Canada it's scandalous that there's any homelessness, poverty and hunger at all.

[garsk]

As an aside, that story of a girl i gave bus tickets to wasn't actually homeless (that i know of) but turns out she's a hooker!

i hope you tapped that shit.

[supercanuk]

Nah man, but the way I found out was because a friend of mine met this guy who brought the hooker to a party they went to. I met up with my buddy that night and he described the girl to me and it was the exact same description of the crazy bus-ticket lady, small world, especially since my friend is from Toronto and was just visiting. It was sad though because she was really expecting to get paid and she was mentally ill and the dude didn't have sex with her and didn't pay her but tried to string her along, until i guess she showed how insane she was (by talking to, and answering herself aloud) and the kid got really scared. Laughed my ass off when i found out she wouldn't leave them alone lol serves the kid right, don't fuck with prostitutes they will fuck you up haha

[bishopx]

I don't think panhandling should be outlawed anymore than busking should. It's subjective, we give money to those we feel we should. It's our choice.