Muslim Outrage Against Cartoons Escalates

[Ravenous Yam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060204/ap_on_...rophet_drawings

 

I'm sure most of you are aware by now of the trouble over the printing of caricatures of the Muslim prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper.

 

In case you were wondering, because apparently it's hard to find the cartoon itself, here it is:

 

 

-Anyway, in an effort to show the world that the depiction of their religion as violent, aggressive, and intolerant is incorrect, they have embarked on a rampage of..... violence, aggression and intolerance.

 

 

"We will redeem our prophet Muhammad with our blood!" they chanted.

 

Mahmoud Zahar, leader of the militant Palestinian group Hamas, told the Italian daily Il Giornale the cartoonists should be punished by death.

 

We should have killed all those who offend the Prophet and instead here we are, protesting peacefully." he said.

 

Note that apparently 'peacefully' includes riots and the burning of foreign embassies, and death threats. I wonder what entails violence in their eyes. Also note that the content of the above quote FUCKING TERRIFIES ME. The world would be so much better off with no religion whatsoever.

 

Of course, it is important to note that many muslims across the world are comdemning the violence perpetrated by these extremists; yet it is equally important to note the importance of free speech and freedom of the press. The extremists are declaring jihads on entire countries, even though it was private newspapers printing the cartoons.

 

 

I can easily see a massive religious war between Islam and the west in the next 15-20 years. Controversial as the islam/west situation is, we should get some real political world issue debate on here instead of the constant liberal/conservative partisan slagging that composes the entire rest of the political forum.

 

What does everyone think?

[ecnarf]

I think these guys are just full of shit.

 

I mean, they took over an embassy in Palestine and kidnapped a bunch of Europeans in retribution. I mean, honestly, what gives? Those people just happen to come from Europe and because a bunch of papers in Europe are saying such a thing, somehow that justifies kidnapping and potentially murder? Give me a break. I know that these idiots in no way reflect the vast majority of Muslims, but come on. Out here in reality-land, we have better ways of dealing with our problems.

[HoboFactory]

I tell ya, if Christians got this worked-up when various cartoonists portray Jesus, then the show Family Guy alone would have lead to the destruction of modern civilization or something.

[ecnarf]

I tell ya, if Christians got this worked-up when various cartoonists portray Jesus, then the show Family Guy alone would have lead to the destruction of modern civilization or something.

Christianity already went through its violent phase, don't worry.

[garsk]

i think the difference is that in the muslim religion, it states that you can not show pictures of Muhammad or other religious figures. In the catholic religion, you can. That is why they are all pissed off.

[HoboFactory]

Christianity already went through its violent phase, don't worry.

 

Whereas Islam was strictly peaceful until now??

 

i think the difference is that in the muslim religion, it states that you can not show pictures of Muhammad or other religious figures. In the catholic religion, you can. That is why they are all pissed off.

 

Actually it's one of the commandments.

 

"You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."

One is required to believe in God and God alone. This prohibits belief in or worship of any additional deities, gods, spirits or incarnations. To deny the uniqueness of God, is to deny all that is written in the Torah. (2)

It is also a prohibition against making or possessing objects that one or other may bow down to or serve such as crucifixes, and any forms of paintings or artistic representations of God. (3)

[ecnarf]

Pavel, my point was that Christianity has already been violent and is pretty much past that (although it was aided by the severe curbing of Papal authority). Islam, not so much.

 

And you're right, it is one of the tenents of anti-Catholicists that Catholics are idolators because of all our statue-worship. I wonder why everyone overlooked that passage in the Bible instead of the ones containing orders to eat your own shit.

[Ravenous Yam]

While it is true that Christianity is mostly past the violent part of its history (though a gloriously violent time it was! the Crusades and the Inquisition pretty much take first place in the religious terror and violence department), there seems to be a resurgence in the US, especially the South. Remember the congressman who advocated nuking Mecca? The Rev. Pat Robertson says shit like that all the time, too, but sane people stopped paying attention.

 

Many parts of the US are becoming more intolerant and aggressive towards foreign peoples of any kind, especially anyone who is ethnically Middle Eastern.

Some argue that the US action in the Middle East is as much a religious war as it is an oil war or a .... 'freedom war' (my ass it's a freedom war).

 

Anyway, apparently these Muslims can dish it out, but not take it. Here is a link to much more offensive cartoons, published by Arab/Muslim media in the last few years. The cartoons contain STRONG anti-semitism and anti-americanism. One of the cartoons (obviously an older one) says that Ariel Sharon drinks the blood of Palestinian children, and that Isreali Jews were responsible for 9/11.

 

Compare one of those anti-semite cartoons to the one at the top of the thread. The anti-semite cartoons are commonplace in Muslim states, but as soon as someone draws a picture offending Muslims, they burn down embassies and call for executions.

 

I hate people.

[ecnarf]

You're getting no argument from me, Yam.

 

Although those few people who do advocate nuking Mecca or that crap are always going to exist. At least be glad that there's only one major religious leader in the U.S. advocating the assassination of the U.S.'s political enemies, rather than a whole bunch of them.

 

Islam always seems to have an interesting relationship with blasphemy. See: Salman Rushdie.

[josiegross]

freedom of speech is not intended to make hate okay. freedom of speech is not intended to make disrespect of another's culture/religion/belief okay. freedom of speech is meant to entitle us to our own opinions, true, but what about common fucking decency? i mean C'MON!

 

of course the cartoon is not okay. of course the ensuing riots and violence are not okay. of course the anti american and anti semite cartoons are not okay. i don't dispute any of that. but media sources REprinting the cartoon in an effort to "defend" free speech are completely out of line. and they really aren't doing anything to protect free speech. they're capitalizing on sensationalism.

[Moonlight_Graham]

I'm sure Muhammad & Alah would be proud.

[HoboFactory]

Seems Iranian cartoonists are to fight back.

 

n Iranian newspaper says it is going to hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West will apply the same principles of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide against Jews as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed, The Associated Press reports.

 

The newspaper, called Hamshahri, said the contest would be launched on February 13 and would be co-convened by itself and the House of Caricatures, a Tehran exhibition center for cartoons.

 

 

Full Article:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/0...ests/index.html

[Cherry Poppin' Daddy]

I thought they were denying the holocaust? If they make fun of it, are they accepting it occured?

[HoboFactory]

Well, tell that to them.

[josiegross]

no. they're not admitting it occured. the people who make fun of jesus the most aren't saying they believe in him are they?

[ecnarf]

but media sources REprinting the cartoon in an effort to "defend" free speech are completely out of line. and they really aren't doing anything to protect free speech. they're capitalizing on sensationalism.

Actually, I think those newspapers are right to reprint the comic. They are standing up for free speech - they're saying "Think what you want of those cartoons, but we are independent and we are not going to be censored."

 

I think the worst thing about this story is that the Danish cleric who had originally brought the cartoons to attention took the original cartoon and then added other cartoons that weren't even printed in the Danish paper in the first place and told everyone what a bunch of jackasses the Danes are.

 

I also don't understand the boycott of Danish products and the assaults on Danish embassies. You can't tell me people in the Arab world don't know that, in the West, media is independent of government. Does the average American deserve to die or suffer death threats because of something printed in the New York Times? No. I don't really agree with the original cartoon, but that isn't the point. The real definition of free speech is "I do not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it." Agree or not with the cartoons, the newspaper that originally printed it and the other newspapers reprinting it out of solidarity are not out of line here. They, as private businesses, have the right to do whatever they want within the bounds of the law. The last time I checked, kidnapping people at European embassies and throwing rocks at buildings with intent to cause damage wasn't legal.

 

We had a discussion about this in religion class. Things haven't changed much since kindergarten, but everyone seemed to come down on the side of the people that were offended. Even my teacher used the argument that this cartoon is the breaking point for everything that the West has been doing in the Middle East. I pointed out that given the invasion of Iraq, use of white Phosphorus in Iraq, the wall in Palestine, CIA black sites, Guantanamo Bay, people being boiled alive in Uzbekistan all should have been tipping points before some stupid drawing. Teacher said he "understood my logic" but asked me to reconsider. There's no reconsidering. All these people have gone mad about a goddamned picture while seemingly ignoring more important issues. Question: if you walked into a room and saw somebody ramming a flourescent light bulb up your friend's ass and a cartoonist drawing a picture that you found offensive, what would you deal with first? That's not to suggest that Muslims are to be blamed for not protesting all the things I've mentioned above when we here in the West are the perpetrators, but it does make you wonder where people's priorities are. What rational mind decides to kidnap people because they are from a country where a newspaper printed a stupid image they found offensive?

[rebellious_L]

Is it really worth pissing off thousands of already pissed off people just to defend a right. The whole situation is childish and we as humanity should be ashamed of ourselves. Both sides are acting like stubborn idiots and making something that doesn't have to be a big deal into a fuckin spectacle of who can be the bigger idiot. If it didn't piss me off so much I would find the whole thing rather hilarious.

 

The extremists have already showed us that they don't care who they hurt, just as long as someone pays for what happened.

[ecnarf]

Is it really worth pissing off thousands of already pissed off people just to defend a right.

Isn't it?

 

If the worst thing that happens is people get pissed off to defend one of the core values of Western society, then I'd say it's been a pretty good day.

 

Of course I don't agree with trying to offend Muslims, but remember what Voltaire said of free speech - "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." The ability to say something without fear of repercussion transcends agreement.

[josiegross]

Is it really worth pissing off thousands of already pissed off people just to defend a right.

Isn't it?

 

If the worst thing that happens is people get pissed off to defend one of the core values of Western society, then I'd say it's been a pretty good day.

 

Of course I don't agree with trying to offend Muslims, but remember what Voltaire said of free speech - "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." The ability to say something without fear of repercussion transcends agreement.

A. the core values of western society -including free speech, in this instance- are all based in self absorption. i don't know what kind of person would think that your right to print a stupid cartoon that is hurtful to an entire religion is worth the reprecussions of that action. everyone KNOWS that the middle east is a volatile community. while i understand and respect your argument that we've done bigger things to piss them off i don't understand how we as human beings can't be expected to treat other people with dignity and respect.

 

B. while we may enjoy the benefits of free speech in our lovely cushy western cultures, some other countries disagree that people should be allowed to spout off whatever hurtful nonsence they wish. so lets have a little respect for that.

 

C. i will never understand the argument that your civil right to say something outweighs another's human right to believe what they want. there would be no need for mention of free speech laws if people could fucking learn not to do stupid shit. how necessary is that cartoon to european newspapers? aside from the fact that it's become what it's become. when they first decided to print it, how important was it? not very. someone thought it was funny. muslims aren't like catholics, they take their religion very seriously.

 

D. if we know what we know about the middle east why do we insist on throwing fuel on the fire?

[Disestabulistic]

B. while we may enjoy the benefits of free speech in our lovely cushy western cultures, some other countries disagree that people should be allowed to spout off whatever hurtful nonsence they wish. so lets have a little respect for that.

 

C. i will never understand the argument that your civil right to say something outweighs another's human right to believe what they want. there would be no need for mention of free speech laws if people could fucking learn not to do stupid shit. how necessary is that cartoon to european newspapers? aside from the fact that it's become what it's become. when they first decided to print it, how important was it? not very. someone thought it was funny. muslims aren't like catholics, they take their religion very seriously.

 

D. if we know what we know about the middle east why do we insist on throwing fuel on the fire?

RE: B. Is it the entire country that believes that, or just the repressive government? Taking away people's right to say what they want is a wonderful way to begin to control and subjugate them.

 

RE:C.The newspapers and people who support them are not telling them waht to believe at all.

 

RE: D. I agree with you there.

[borntohula]

its unfortunate that all this is over a comic.

 

would they find this picture offensive as well?

[Cherry Poppin' Daddy]

Probably.

[josiegross]

it is thier religious belief that any depiction of him, even in the most positive light, is wrong, and is perpetuating idol worship.

[borntohula]

i guess that's a good policy for a religion to have

[Ravenous Yam]

I agree with ecnarf. All the blame for this disastrous situation lies with the rioters, not the cartoonists. Perhaps it was an unwise decision to print the cartoons, but they should without a doubt be allowed to.

 

Meanwhile, the situation continues to escalate. Apprently, around 45 people (mostly Christians) were killed by rioters in Nigeria, citing the cartoons (still?) as the cause, despite the fact that Nigeria's Christian population condemned the cartoons a long time ago.

 

It was the first major protest to erupt over the issue in Africa's most populous nation. An Associated Press reporter saw mobs of Muslim protesters swarm through the city center with machetes, sticks and iron rods. One group threw a tire around a man, poured gas on him and set him ablaze.

 

These people are making it really, really difficult to be tolerant. 'Offensive' drawings do not equal murder. These protesters and jihad-declaring imams need to try the fine art of politics and diplomacy, rather than just killing everything they don't like. But i guess that's the whole problem, isn't it?