Bc Teachers Should Get Back To Work

[Matt]

Really, this is an illegal strike, they are not helping children, they are holding their education for their own purposes in negotiations. This has to do with the teachers, smaller class sizes and increased pay means less work and more money. Who really wins? The teachers. Increased class sizes can work if the teacher is good enough to teach them. The government's imposed contract expires in June, and I have to say good on them for so far refusing to negotiate until the teachers go back to work. The teachers are also setting a bad example right now for children, this is an illegal strike so what they're saying is it's ok to do what you want when you simply don't like something. It's time for them to go back to work and allow children to learn again.

[Cherry Poppin' Daddy]

Really, is someone paying you to kiss the Liberal's ass?

[Bizud]

There's something you don't realize: the right to strike is not for governments to revoke at their pleasure.

 

You also have some of the details wrong - the government has already ruled out negotiating by extending the illegally-imposed contract, which is the whole reason for the strike. They say they haven't ruled out "listening to the teachers' concerns," but they have ruled out negotiating a contract.

 

The teachers are saying it's okay to break an unjust law, which it is. The government has deprived these teachers of their rights. The right to strike is among the most basic of hard-earned worker rights and the Campbell government has once again shown that it doesn't care, even though Canada's signature on the UN Convention on Human Rights guarantees the right to collective bargaining.

 

And now strike pay is being withheld? Everyone knows that if you take away strike pay you kill the strike. Fuck the law. General strike time, or better yet, let's have a revolution, this government is pursuing a policy of violating human rights and it's disgusting and it has to go.

[Crusader]

Really, this is an illegal strike,

Strikes should never be made "illegal". In a country like ours where we strive to prevent exploitation as well as maintain a "universal healthcare" system that's like re-constituting the draft. The BC government sure isn't acting like a centre/left of centre government.

 

The last time I checked, Unions were still legal and strikes fell under their exercisable right. The fact that the government denied them that right is reason enough that they strike.

[no yu begin wher i end]

Here in Manitoba (or at least in my school division), teachers waive the right to strike in their contracts. Is this the case in BC, too?

[Bizud]

Not the case.

[supercanuk]

yah im sorry but thats fucken rediculous man. a protest should NEVER been seen as illegal, and you know what, the teachers are showing a great example to the kids. teaching the kids that if you dont like something to DO something about it, is amazing in the least. with rampant apathy in our schools and youth in general i hope the kids take a note from these teachers! Teachers DO need smaller classes AND better pay, give them their dues!

[Matt]

The teachers have no right to take education hostage, it sets a bad example. They are saying if you don't like a law, well screw it you can just choose which laws to follow and which ones to ignore, that's not a good example, laws are in place for a reason.

 

The contract is in place to June, the idea is to have the children in the classroom and to allow the BCTF and the Employeer negotiate a settlement. However, the Employeer is being brave here by not giving into every single demand the union has because some of them are ridiculous. If class sizes are smaller the wage increases would have to go towards paying for more teachers and space for one. Also, the N.D.P. at one point legislated people back to work, the essential services law basically has the same effect. It's more important that children have an education because without that their options will be severely limited in life. Also the teachers say it will not affect children to be out for awhile, then why does it matter if we even have teachers in the first place then? It's not the duty of the employee to set working conditions either, it's the duty of the employeer. And the employeer has rights to, yet those always seemed to be missed by some.

[ecnarf]

This has to do with the teachers, smaller class sizes and increased pay means less work and more money. Who really wins? The teachers. Increased class sizes can work if the teacher is good enough to teach them.

That's a pretty big if.

 

I'd like to know - do you think that you could learn in, say, a grade 12 chemistry class with a class size of 35? The sheer size of the class makes it very difficult for you to go up to the teacher and ask for a clarification on something you don't understand. And that's you just being one of thirty five. Even an experienced, competent teacher's effectiveness is compromised by a huge class size. And, worst of all, the students are the ones who suffer with huge class sizes. Education isn't just about teachers, it's about students. And if teachers are fighting for smaller class sizes, it is ultimately the students who will benefit from it. I've been lucky enough to be in classes that have small sizes - my grade twelve history course last year had about 13 people, my physics course this year has about 14, and my chemistry class has only 9. And let me tell you, the whole atmosphere of such a small class size is entirely different from a large class. You're able to interact with the teachers on a much more advanced level, and have the opportunity to get any individual attention that you are ultimately going to need. Conversely, being in a very large class ruins all of this - it's very intimidating to an inexperienced teacher, kills all in-class individual attention time save for the most struggling students, and makes you as a student blend into the entire class, and as a result, your marks can suffer.

 

I don't know where you get off saying all this stuff, but large class sizes simply can't be compensated for by competent teachers. You can learn in a large class size with a competent teacher, but you can do incredibly well in a medium sized class with a competent teacher.

 

I mean, really, did you even go to high school? Because the way you say that class sizes are no big deal really does make me wonder.

[supercanuk]

They are saying if you don't like a law, well screw it you can just choose which laws to follow and which ones to ignore, that's not a good example, laws are in place for a reason.

Before you say laws are in place for a reason, ask yourself which reason. Laws are most definitely in place to keep those that made them, in the power structures they prefer. To play "their" game so to speak. An unjust law, is a law not worth following. Sometimes we can't all just get along and toe the line, sometimes it is unbearable and you NEED to strike for what you feel is right. I personally live by my conscience, not by the laws of the land. I will not follow a law i see as unfit or unjust whatever those consequences may be. I am not saying this is how everyone should live their lives, but an illegitimate authority (the state) should never stand in the way of your conscience.

[Bizud]

It's not the duty of the employee to set working conditions either, it's the duty of the employeer. And the employeer has rights to, yet those always seemed to be missed by some.

 

The employer has no such right! A job is something you enter into voluntarily, under terms that you negotiate with your employer. It's just that often nowadays it's framed in such a way that there are no actual negotiations, because the employer is in such a position of overwhelming superiority that they can dictate the terms to you, and you take it or leave it. But you still agreed to the terms. And the thing is, if you don't like the terms and you can convince your fellow workers to support you, you can strike to try to get things changed. You can strike if they don't support you too, but it won't get very far. The point is you have the right to strike. It comes from the very basic fact that in any negotiation, the person with more bargaining power will be able to extract a better deal. In the employer-employee relationship, the employer has a lot more bargaining power than a lone employee and will naturally use that power to reach a deal that favours him - he'll pay you as little as he thinks he can get away with for as much work as he can get, that's almost a universal truth, and it's the reason we have workplace safety requirements, minimum wage, the 40 hour work week and other labour laws, among the most basic of which is the right to strike. Employees have the best chance of getting a fair deal if they present a common front.

 

I'm the crazy anarchist, I think unions ought to run the world. Employees should have a say in how their workplace is run, because they have a stake in how it is run, because the workplace is a central part of one's life. Unions, if themselves democratic, are agents of workplace democracy.

[supercanuk]

I'm the crazy anarchist, I think unions ought to run the world. Employees should have a say in how their workplace is run, because they have a stake in how it is run, because the workplace is a central part of one's life. Unions, if themselves democratic, are agents of workplace democracy.

That makes two of us, and like the bumpersticker at home says:

"The Labour movement: the folks who brought you the weekend"

You can obviously see how important labour movements are, we owe them everything. If they didnt start that movement we'd still be working insane hours under insane conditions.

[little miss sunshine]

I'm the crazy anarchist, I think unions ought to run the world.  Employees should have a say in how their workplace is run, because they have a stake in how it is run, because the workplace is a central part of one's life.  Unions, if themselves democratic, are agents of workplace democracy.

That makes two of us, and like the bumpersticker at home says:

"The Labour movement: the folks who brought you the weekend"

You can obviously see how important labour movements are, we owe them everything. If they didnt start that movement we'd still be working insane hours under insane conditions.

Off topic.

 

Windsor is a huge union town and I can't stand it. We have people working at the big three who make $35/hour for unskilled labour that a monkey could do. They have, I believe, 9 weeks off a year. Then they come into my pharmacy and bitch about paying $0.35 for a prescription. It is really fucking annoying how spoiled these people are. Unions might have had a time and place, but I don't think that they were created so people with only a highschool education can make that kind of money.

 

Now I feel better.

[supercanuk]

Off topic.

What are you talking about? its not off topic at all, we're talking about strikes, unions, and "illegal" striking. I am completely on topic.

[no yu begin wher i end]

I think she was saying that she was off topic.

[supercanuk]

Well arent i silly then lol

[TheKwas]

Why should less-educated people earn all that much less than educated people exactly? Even if they work just as hard and their labour is needed just as much?

[Matt]

To answer one of the questions, yes I went to high school, and I had a class of 38, and I did better in that class than in one with less students. The reason was the teacher was much better and she made sure everyone learned the material. I quite agree with the point of how ridiculous Unions have become which was brought up by another person. Many of the Unions demand too much for the work. Teachers have plenty of vacation time and time off in which they could have a second job, like many other non-teachers have. The teachers are not currently negotiating either, they are simply saying we want smaller class sizes, and we want more money and then we'll go back to work. There's no compromise there, so the employeer has every right to refuse to negotiate with someone who is not negotiating anyways. Also, students have a right to an education, and quite frankly the employeer is currently representing the needs of students by trying to keep them in class, while the teachers are out in the cold for themselves. This unjust law as people call it is as just as legislating people back to work, even the NDP did this during their two terms, it's the same thing. The only difference between essential services and legislation is essential services pre-empts a strike in the hopes of keeping everything flowing properly without any stoppage. Laws are important, it's good and all to follow your conscience, but if people started doing whatever they wanted and ignored laws just because they did not like them, there could be some serious negative consequences as a result. This is a just law, it is almost identical to what British Columbians had before anyways, which other governments took advantage of, this is simply an adaptation of legislation.

Edited October 16, 2005 by Matt

[Spritzup]

For those complaining about the 'large' size of high school classes, just wait until you hit university and the class size is 400 people.

 

Currently striking teachers are holding the kids they teach hostage, and that's not right.

[crazycanuck]

 

I don't think the teacher's intentions are entirely noble and self-sacrificing for the students (remember, smaller classes mean more classes mean more teachers hired), but at the same time, the way the Liberals have fucked over unions these past years, and they had to know it would catch up to them sooner or later, and eventually someone had to take a stand. If the Liberals hadn't legislated the contract renewal, this strike wouldn't be happening right now.

 

Monday is the big rally, with a general strike in Victoria. It should be interesting to see how many show up.

[TheKwas]

There's a reason why High schools have smaller classes than Universities, because most of the students aren't ready for the 500 student classes.

 

Either action in this case hurts the students (either continuing with large class sizes, or delaying their education for a few weeks), and no one can be sure which one will have a bigger effect on the students.

[little miss sunshine]

Well arent i silly then lol

no, you're just a drunk bunny!

 

Hope your shows tonight and tomorrow are fantastic!

 

And, to the person who asked why less educated people should get paid less, I wasn't strictly referring to the fact that they are uneducated. I just don't agree that they should get paid $35/hr for a mindless job that requires no skills or talent that any monkey could do.

[Matt]

I think teachers should use high school to prepare kids for a college/university scenario. Unlike in high school, it is less likely that teachers can/will adapt teaching strategies plus students are in a sink or swim situation as well. If kids are put into that situation in high school when the sink is swim situation is a bit reduced they can learn to adapt to the situation, this is also where teachers could help by offering up strategies to help students excel better in these situations as well. This would work better than our current system, which use a variety of different teaching styles, while they may be valid and worth while, they don't prepare students for University, which could make the situation a bit more overwhelming for a student. Instead of worrying about class sizes, teachers should work towards helping students succeed in post-secondary situations instead.

 

Also, this strike would have likely happened either way, it seems unlikely either side was going to budge. Also from the Liberal perspective they kind have had to do this because they needed to have the government programs work at a financially sustainable level. Also many public buildings have had to undergo repairs in the last several years for various reasons. So there really was not a whole lot of money to go around.

Edited October 17, 2005 by Matt

[Bizud]

The government doesn't have to budge if it can just say the teachers aren't allowed to strike. It's the government that is being intransigent here, not the teachers. Their demands are not excessive, and a majority of British Columbians agree.

 

The fact is that if a union doesn't want to work for what they're being offered, it is their right to strike.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...ally051017.html

 

B.C. Premier Gordon Campbell urged thousands of striking teachers to return to work, saying they are in "flagrant contempt" of the courts.

 

Bus service came to a halt in Victoria as transit employees walked off the job in advance of a major rally supporting 38,000 striking teachers who are into their sixth school day of the illegal strike.

 

As many as 15,000 members of government unions on Vancouver Island, ranging from bus drivers to social workers, have gathered along with hundreds of teachers for the protest.

 

Speaking to reporters, Campbell said that while he understands the union may disagree with government policy, that did not give them the right to break the law and show "such flagrant contempt for the courts of British Columbia."

 

"We can disagree on the laws that are passed, and we often do. But the foundation of our society is that once a law is passed that we agree to obey it. We do not get to obey the laws that we like and disobey the laws that we don't like," Campbell said.

 

The British Columbia Teachers' Federation is ignoring legislation that declares education an essential service, meaning teachers in the province don't have the right to strike, as well as a contempt of court ruling issued against it the weekend after the strike began on Oct. 7.

 

Pickets have been springing up around the city at government buildings and offices to support the teachers. Many municipal services have been cancelled. All branches of the Greater Victoria Public Library and many Victoria-area recreational centres are closed.

 

Victoria Mayor Alan Lowe called the job action illegal and said employees taking part in the strike would lose a day's pay.

 

Bus service was cancelled in in the morning in the Greater Victoria area. B.C. Transit said it will seek a court order to remove the pickets, in the hope bus service can be restored later in the day.

 

Camosun College and the University of Victoria are both open, but are expecting disruptions.

 

The rally comes as the B.C. government has appointed a special prosecutor to consider criminal contempt proceedings against the illegally striking teachers.

 

The teachers want a 15 per cent wage increase and smaller class sizes. They are angry that the government pushed through legislation that unilaterally extended their collective agreement until June 2006.

 

About 600,000 students from kindergarten to Grade 12 have been out of class because of the strike.

 

The Canadian Union of Public Employees says Monday's rally is just the start of its job action aimed at supporting the teachers.

 

On Tuesday, all CUPE union members in the northern part of British Columbia will walk away from their jobs as a form of protest.

 

;)

 

My favourite part:

 

"We do not get to obey the laws that we like and disobey the laws that we don't like."

 

Edited October 17, 2005 by Bizud

[Matt]

The demands are excessive, that 15% wage increase would certainly mean the employeer would have to increase class sizes further to be able to afford the increase. If the class sizes are smaller the employeer would certainly have decrease wages to cover the cost of having to hire more teachers. There's no way around the fact that either way it's going to cost more money than the government can and wants to spend. Also the other unions have been forced to having a zero percent increase for several years, surely more strikes would happen too if an increase of any sort was given.

 

Beyond which, the government has always had the right to call an strike illegal, it's called legislating them back to work, the NDP used it even. It's not like this has not been done before, it has.

 

If the union members do not want to work for whats being offered they could always look elsewhere for work. Generally when people are un-happy about their wages it seems common for them to look for another job elsewhere.

Edited October 17, 2005 by Matt