Tory Victory

[Ravenous Yam]

Buahahaha. We're coming to get you! It was our secret Western plan all along.

 

If the Conservatives even want a slight chance at getting elected again any time in the near future, they aren't gonna piss off the most populous province.

 

I hope they don't do that, as it would just perpetuate the cycle. Yes, Ontario has 'shit on' the West in the past, but if every election the power keeps going back and forth and the two halves of the country (that's all this is - eastern canada vs. western canada) keep shitting on each other for revenge, this isn't gonna work.

 

 

Can't we all just get along?

[supercanuk]

Well put, the short answer of course is that we cant get along, there is going to be some hard battles to be fought for the conservatives and i hope that everyone including politicians and civilians participate to make sure that only progressive legislation is introduced and passed.

[Sparq]

If politicians invariably fail to meet their promises...would we vote for a guy who vowed to grind us all into hamburger to feed the poor and construct an enormous supercollider as part of a plan to annihilate the earth with an artificial black hole? It amounts to national russian roulette...

[Spritzup]

If he followed through with it, he'd have my vote. That's all I want, a little bit of honesty.

[supercanuk]

I've heard a lot of people say that. That if a politician came knocking at their door that if the politician said " why am i running? OH! im a crook and want to get out with as much money as I can" that they would vote for them on the sheer honesty principle.

[Sparq]

I'd probably just kick him in the groin and take his wallet. He may be honest, but he's still stupid.

[ecnarf]

Buahahaha. We're coming to get you! It was our secret Western plan all along.

 

If the Conservatives even want a slight chance at getting elected again any time in the near future, they aren't gonna piss off the most populous province.

 

I hope they don't do that, as it would just perpetuate the cycle. Yes, Ontario has 'shit on' the West in the past, but if every election the power keeps going back and forth and the two halves of the country (that's all this is - eastern canada vs. western canada) keep shitting on each other for revenge, this isn't gonna work.

 

 

Can't we all just get along?

What I meant was that the Western MP's are going to want to shit on Ontario for voting liberal all these years. Toronto, specifically, as nobody's voting conservative here anyways.

[Moonlight_Graham]

It seems not so much as a vote in support of the Conservatives, but a way of punishing the arrogant Liberals.

 

Bah.

Its both for me. If the Liberals vanished off the face of the earth i still would have voted Tory. And i'll never apologize for passionately wanting the Liberal reign of terror to end.

 

A lot of people are scared of Harper's right-wing views (i'm not scared, more like "worried"). But i think its much scarier to have a power-mongering, corrupt, wasteful government that constantly lies to us.

 

I'm proud that Canadians have voted to make our government responsible for their actions. But i'm also concerned that Canadians still rewarded the Liberals' incompetency with over 100 seats. 50-60 seats ok, but 100+? I think that says a lot about both the NDP & Conservatives.

 

And Harper is not stupid. Now George Bush, he's stupid. Harper's actually quite intelligent, but many of us youngins just disgree with him on some ethical/moral issues (abortion, gay marriage etc.) & some foreign policy. But its ok because I call Harper stupid all the time and need to correct myself.

 

Bush is Harper minus 40 IQ points and 40% more hick. ;)

[ecnarf]

Bush is Harper's stupid clone.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Harper ended up wearing the pants in the Canada-U.S. relationship.

[supercanuk]

Bush is Harper's stupid clone.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Harper ended up wearing the pants in the Canada-U.S. relationship.

haha thats awsome

The beef i have is that i dont believe in a neo-con agenda. People will always say "oh Harper isn't a neo-con like the states" but thats not what im referring to. He still believes in free-market capitalism ( like Martin ) wants to get tuff on crime even though its proven that getting tuff on crime doesnt actually curb crime rates, good economies do ( like Martin). There is a lot of things that make Martin and Harper similiar, im glad that we "awarded" the Liberals with a 100 seats because hopefully they'll be able to fight any socially regressive Conservative agenda's. Then again, maybe they won't, only time will tell.

[ecnarf]

A strong free market is important, though. You won't find any serious politician in the Western world who doesn't agree with that. Throughout history, a strong free market has spurred development and invention. To avoid any extreme economic recessions and ensure a high standard of living, social programs are important. That's essentially my take on politics is, if you'd care to hear it, and I think that's what Canada has been for the last quarter century... a strong free market with certain elements of socialism thrown in, and I'll be darned if we aren't ranked as one of the best countries in which to live by the UN (although we still have a long way to go before we can extend that claim to all our citizens). Stephen Harper just happens to favour a strong free market to strong social programs. I don't find anything wrong with that right now, because the rest of the political parties won't delay to punish him if he tries to steer too far away from the social programs.

 

As for the crime thing, getting tough on crime that's happening right now is important. It's been proven that the "broken windows" approach to crime, like they did in New York and are doing in LA is effective in reducing crime. That is, cops will punish petty crimes like gang members loitering around in streets because that upholds a high standard... it reduces neighbourhood decay by stopping it in the first place. On the other hand, providing meal and education programs for kids in poor areas before they turn to crime in the first place is important for finding a long-term solution to both crime and poverty. Anyone who denies that proper social programs will have a long-term effect on crime and poverty is nothing short of foolish.

[supercanuk]

I totally understand you

[josiegross]

having spent over half of my youth living below the poverty line, i can say that it makes me SO sad to think of what our poverty line is in comparison with that of other countries across the world. being so young, of course i didn't understand the stress my parents were under, and for me my dad going broke was no more blueberry syrup on my pancakes, and no-name barbie dolls with hollow legs. but i still had pancakes and barbies, if you see what i'm saying.

 

 

 

 

(TOTAL TANGENT)

[supercanuk]

Josie that is completely relevant, not a tangent, very apt. Its all in how you measure poverty right? I mean we still live in a country where some who are below the poverty line can still provide certain things for their children. But your case is a personal one. A very personal friend of mine lived with his dad who was separated from his mom. He was a construction worker and worked everyday. This man worked very hard, and never had enough money to bring home basic food. They mostly went to food shelters, i was friends with him for five years while he was at his dads (still am so it makes it 7 but he moved into his mom's house) and not once did their cupboard have food. Only until my buddy

Edited January 26, 2006 by supercanuk

[ecnarf]

And I have read evidence that the

[supercanuk]

For sure, id have to see the Maclean's article, and since this is from a cop he has kind of a bias, and a vested interest in getting more police officers on the beat, so id for sure have to see the article. I dont think theres really one overall way to defeat crime, or for that matter one society in which crime doesnt exist. Even in the most egalitarian of societies crime exists, they just deal with it differently.

[Matt]

The current make up of the house is basically the same with one key party switch. As it stands the Grits and Bloc have 154, the Tories and NDP have 154, it all comes down to the 1 independant from the sound of it.

[supercanuk]

Who is apparently some controversial radio show host? Thats what i heard.

[Matt]

He's a shock joque radio DJ.

[Moonlight_Graham]

supercanuk, encarf makes a good point about the "broken windows" theory. It certainly did seem to work in New York City, and Rudy Guliani did an amazing job cleaning up the crime in that town. Try googling it and see what you might find. Remember the old NYC sterotype in movies etc. that you'd get mugged on every street-corner? You rarely ever see that stereotype anymore, because its a safer city now.

 

But i totally agree that good economies & fixing poverty levels is one of the best ways to reduce crime. You said that its very easy for Canada to end its poverty, how so? Any ways this has been done elsewhere, or any ideas of your own?

 

But poverty of course isn't the only crime factor. In Toronto you have a lot of immigrants crammed into one city, and some of these immgrants have brought their old violent habits and cultural rivalries with them to Canada. This has caused a lot of the gang-violence in Toronto. I'd imagine its extremely hard and unlikely for some of these people to forget their old survival mechanisms and hatreds the moment they step on Canadian soil.

 

I don't know why they keep sending most of the immigrants and refugees etc. to Toronto, they should really try to spread it out evenly across Canada more. But i guess once an immigrant settles in one city, their relatives & friends etc obviously want to come live in that city also when they move to Canada.

 

I like a free-market society. Capitalism isn't perfect, but its the best system that has been devised so far. As long as there is a healthy social safety-net for those who lose their job or can't find one, plus people like single mothers & people with disabilities etc. i think capitalism can work. I believe that anyone who is willing to work hard should be able to earn a decent living, and those that for some reason cannot work as hard (disability etc.) should be taken care of.

[ecnarf]

I'd like to point out that, as a 2nd generation Canadian, the problem isn't immigrants bringing their violent ways to Canada. It's been estimated that up to 85% of the gang problem in Toronto is from Jamaican gangs (and the murder rate in Jamaica this year was about 1400). Those people just come here for the welfare and to cause problems, not to raise a family or create a better life for their children, unlike my grandparents.

[supercanuk]

haha Graham i have all kinds of idea's but of course they all basically have to do with radically changing our economic system. We can end poverty in Canada by switching some of our production of crops. The amount of space used to raise cattle, if replaced with crops that yield more nutritional forms of substinance such as soya, different forms of non-meat products ( no i dont have anything against meat but we eat entirely too much of it) could feel all the starving familes in the third world. The problem is not lack of food, its the distribution of food. We've had the ability to end world hunger for many years we just don't because their isnt money in saving human life. Thats just food. In terms of poverty, we'd have to have a controlled economy, not free market, free market basically requires some to be out of work. Not to mention that we need to pay real wages, not 7 bucks an hour, if we are to maintain the standard of living with the amount of inflation. There are alternatives, we just need to think them up ;)

Edited January 27, 2006 by supercanuk

[Moonlight_Graham]

Yeah encarf i was going to mention the Jamaican gangs that heard were causing the most problems. I'm not an expert on the situation in Toronto. But i think my point of immigrants coming here and brining their old violent ways pertains to the Jamaicans.

 

supercanuk - even we gave up a lot of the cattle business, i think the farmers would rather sell their land to developers than just let the governments grow crops on it for free. Of course the gov't could buy the land, but you'd still have to pay people to farm it. Too bad farmers couldn't grow something other than hay & grass on the cattle land, but of course if they did they'd want to be compensated. maybe the cheapest way to provide food to the poor is to just provide them food from the supermarket (the ol' foodstamps).

 

The thing that kinda pisses me off about rich celebrities who are always preaching about poverty is that even though they do give money to charities etc., these people still keep most of their money & drive ridiculas cars etc. I'd like to how much of Bono's total wealth has gone to charitable causes.

[ecnarf]

Yeah encarf i was going to mention the Jamaican gangs that heard were causing the most problems. I'm not an expert on the situation in Toronto. But i think my point of immigrants coming here and brining their old violent ways pertains to the Jamaicans.

I don't think "immigrants bringing their old violent ways" accurate describes the situation. They basically come here to live on welfare (which isn't much by our standards but is a lot by theirs) and cause trouble... that's not "bringing your old violent ways", it's just bringing violence. There's nothing old about it.

[josiegross]

that's what my boycott of gangsta rap is all about. sure some of it's got talent, but how can you make millions complaining about a situation you won't pay to fix? how many housing projects could that "bling" have afforded? how many jobs could you create? how many kid's programs could you provide? oooooh, i'm getting riled up now.