Eternal Sunshine/brain Candy

[ecnarf]

I was talking to shade.

 

For example, this story..

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...ml?hpid=artslot

 

Such happy moments have been rare for Luttrell. After recuperating, he deployed to Iraq, returning home this spring. His injuries from Afghanistan still require a "narcotic regimen." He feels tormented by the death of his Seal friends, and he avoids sleeping because they appear in his dreams, shrieking for help.

 

Mm hmm.

 

Honestly, all this "there is a lesson to be learned" thing smacks of bullshit. Shit happens that is purely senseless, where there isn't a lesson to be learned. Virginia Tech: someone who was certifiably nuts finally cracks and kills a bunch of people. What lesson can be learned from the death of a friend or family member who was killed by a lunatic? Other than the obvious "value the time with those who are around you" platitudes.

Edited June 19, 2007 by ecnarf

[shade]

So you are saying it is up to everyone else to help these people?

[ecnarf]

So you are saying it is up to everyone else to help these people?

Where the fuck did you get that from? I'm saying that your line of "there is a lesson to be learned from everything" sounds to me as nothing more than disingenuous bullshit. And since the law of averages are such that very few of us have experienced the type of extremely traumatic event that this drug is designed to help mitigate, saying "Car crash / paedophilia victim just needs to get over it" or "War veteran haunted by sight of his friends dying needs to get over it" is nothing but pure armchair psychology.

[Ravenous megin-sane]

in all fairness... this drug would be allowing them to get over it.

 

they do need to get over it for personal reasons, as it's going to fuck them up real hard. but it's how they go about doing that that's important.

 

if they just sit at home and allow their thoughts and memories eat away at them, it's just going to make everything that much worse. so something does need to be done, it's what can be done that's debatable

[shade]

Where the fuck did you get that from? I'm saying that your line of "there is a lesson to be learned from everything" sounds to me as nothing more than disingenuous bullshit. And since the law of averages are such that very few of us have experienced the type of extremely traumatic event that this drug is designed to help mitigate, saying "Car crash / paedophilia victim just needs to get over it" or "War veteran haunted by sight of his friends dying needs to get over it" is nothing but pure armchair psychology.

Fine, go ahead and feel sorry for everyone all the time.

 

Why should anyone even move foreward...when life deals you a shitty hand just sit back and let it take over.

[ecnarf]

Well now you've ceased to frame arguments and started putting words in my mouth.

[Azalroth]

See, just because some things can cause a person to smarten and/or toughen up doesn't mean that all traumatic experiences are good in the long run.

Ok...when and where did we start arguing about ALL "traumatic" experiences are good or bad. I'm ONLY arguing that there is something to learn from it...not if it's good or bad.

 

 

PS: "traumatic" is in quotes because it's meaning can be altered by ones experiences.

 

Traumatic

 

Take this as an example of something traumatic in MY life.

 

My mom ran out on me and my dad 6 years or so ago. She did this the day after she promised me to talk to my dad, sure I knew something was going on, I just didn't know what...yet. When she took off I was asleep in the basement, she managed to take with her a bed, hope chest, dresser, and lamps...and various other things. All of this happened while I was asleep. When I woke up there was a note on the kitchen table with the obvious writting in it. That wasn't the worst part, I was home alone, no one else to call. My dad was at work, I had to wait ALL day for dad to come home to tell him that Mom had left us.

 

That was a traumatic experience for me, for which I've learned something and I find myself a better person because of it. Sure it's nothing as horrible as rape, or watching everyone that you've ever known burn in a building knowing that there isn't anything reasonable that you can do about it at the time. There is still a lesson on both of those, whether YOU choose to see it or not.

[ecnarf]

I'm using traumatic in the sense of what type of memories the drug is aiming at; high-adrenaline, dangerous, and occuring within a more or less distinct time frame.

 

Obviously I can't relate to what happened to you. But I don't think that yours is the type of memory that the drug is going to work on. Where your memory involves emotional trauma (for lack of a less pompous way to name it), the examples I've been using involve physical trauma and physical danger as well, and in the military examples, fear of losing your life. The latter is the type that it seems the drug is going to target, and the type where I support the principle of using the drug as a type of therapy to help the individual get back on a proper mental footing.

 

The type of memories you're talking about won't be targeted by the drug. To me they're analagous to losing a boyfriend or girlfriend (although by no means the same). I agree that kind of shit can lead to a person becoming better. But there should be no comparison between your type of memory and the memories that the drug is capable of targeting, as I've outlined above: they involve physical trauma, physical danger and life-threatening situations. Their effect on a person's psyche is far more profound and much longer lasting. It's safe to say that very few to none of us have either the education or firsthand experience to properly judge what goes on. Saying "toughen up, get over it and learn a lesson from it" to someone whose wife has left them is profoundly different from saying the same thing to a rape victim or PTSD sufferer or paedophilia victim.

[shade]

Well now you've ceased to frame arguments and started putting words in my mouth.

Its better than listing off sob stories as some sort of support for argument.

[ecnarf]

Its better than listing off sob stories as some sort of support for argument.

Go read my above post and try again. There is a god damned difference between your high school sweetheart getting gangbanged by the football team and having Father O'Brannigan cornhole you.

[shade]

Now you are just being silly.

[soundless_space]

Really interesting discussion here.

 

I'm just going to say Adam you need to open your eyes man.

[Azalroth]

Saying "toughen up, get over it and learn a lesson from it" to someone whose wife has left them is profoundly different from saying the same thing to a rape victim or PTSD sufferer or paedophilia victim.

And that is precisely what I'm NOT saying. I'm still not arguing the fact that it's traumatic...just saying there's a lesson to be learned.

 

I also agree with you in saying that our experiences don't match what these people have had.

 

There is a god damned difference between your high school sweetheart getting gangbanged by the football team and having Father O'Brannigan cornhole you.

 

Are you comparing the two?

Edited June 19, 2007 by Azalroth

[ecnarf]

Are you comparing the two?

... are you being sarcastic?

 

Its better than listing off sob stories as some sort of support for argument.

 

Which reminds me; God forbid I actually use examples to support my argument.

 

I'm just going to say Adam you need to open your eyes man.

 

Open my eyes to what? You could at least have the decency to explicate. I have a clear point here: there are cases where traumatic (and the specific terms of that use have been previously defined) experiences emotionally cripple people. This is not the kind of traumatic experience that the average person goes through. I'm talking about military and police types who see extremely gruesome events on the job, people who see their family/friends mangled to bits in a car crash, etc, that lead to things like PTSD and flashbacks that physically prevent a person from functioning normally. You'd have to have a screw loose to suggest that therapy wouldn't help them recover. It has been shown that a combination of pyschiatrist appointments and a drug regimen is the most effective form of therapy; a drug regimen on its own is actually superior to psychiatrist appointments on their own. Why should these people be denied medical treatment for a medical condition that is caused by fucked up brain chemistry?

[shade]

Giving them a drug or not wasn't even the original argument...so I don't really know what you mean.

 

The argument was...can people learn something from horrible situations...and you seem to think they cannot.

[ecnarf]

Giving them a drug or not wasn't even the original argument...so I don't really know what you mean.

 

The argument was...can people learn something from horrible situations...and you seem to think they cannot.

Again; more words in my mouth.

 

Read my god damned posts, would you? Because from the way you're talking you clearly aren't.

 

EDIT: And considering this thread was started by a link to, you guessed it, a drug, I think it most certainly was the original argument.

Edited June 19, 2007 by ecnarf

[Prometheon]

I am shocked by some of the opinions presented in this thread.

 

Shiri, I'm incredibly surprised with you. One rape victim becomes a stronger person because of it does not equate to everyone who has ever been raped needing to "learn a lesson and become a stronger person." That type of reasoning is inductive and potentially dangerous.

 

How old was she when she was raped? What if she were a male? What if the offender was a family member? What if it was a preist? What if she had been half (or a quarter, or a tenth) of the age she was when it happened?

 

The fact of the mater is, that PTSD exists, and it often imapairs the functioning of the victim on a profound level. Often, yes, people can overcome it through insight therapy, medication, or even just on their own, but often this is not the case. Things like these are not an exact science, and just because some people respond differently to treatments (and some don't even need them or respond to them at all) speaks only to the differences in their experiances, perceptions of them, neuroanatomical makeup, and personality. To say that a drug that mitigates the effects of potnetially life-shattering occurances in your life is unneccessary is a completely insensitive, ignorant and blanket statement.

 

I guarantee that there is a set of events that could have happened to you in the past that would make you a much worse person in the present. The term "worse" could mean phobias, disorders, fixations, even changes in neuroanatomical functioning. Also, it is likely that the administration of a drug that does what this drug claims to do may mitigate these effects.

 

I'm not saying "oh, you've been raped? Had a bad breakup? Here, take these pills and forget all about it." But I am saying that in certain circumstances, it would be more than warranted, and in many of these situations, no amount of "what doesn't kill you just makes you stronger" and "learn a lesson from your experiances" bullshit would help.

[ecnarf]

Thank god for you, Owen. Probably the only one here with any relevant education on the subject.

[Prometheon]

Heh, thanks Adam. I'm just utterly appaled with some of these posts, both on a contextual and logical level. Take this one for example:

 

There is something you are not getting.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Prometheon

[sodamntired]

very good Owen

[soundless_space]

Open my eyes to what? You could at least have the decency to explicate.

I didn't really need to. You knew what I meant. Also I think fighting over the internet is pretty lame most of the time.

[ecnarf]

I didn't really need to. You knew what I meant. Also I think fighting over the internet is pretty lame most of the time.

No, you're going to have to explain what I'm being blind to.

[ToadMan]

WOW.

 

So I looked up a couple more facts (not that people some to respond to my posts)

http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheet...onsequences.cfm

 

Poor mental and emotional health. In one long-term study, as many as 80 percent of young adults who had been abused met the diagnostic criteria for at least one psychiatric disorder at age 21.

 

Abusive behavior. Abusive parents often have experienced abuse during their own childhoods. It is estimated approximately one-third of abused and neglected children will eventually victimize their own children

 

This stands opposed to the assertion that people can learn from these kind of experiences. It appears in reality that they are no able to do so with out help.

[shade]

Heh, thanks Adam. I'm just utterly appaled with some of these posts, both on a contextual and logical level. Take this one for example:

 

 

 

So you concede that in many cases the mind is "full out blown," but that there are "chances for recovery in even the worst cases." Ignoring the fact that you have no evidence for this assertion, and that I'm pretty sure it was just pulled out of your ass, wouldn't a drug that increased this "chance of recovery" be a good thing? Or is the random probability of getting better completely dependant on how hard you try to learn from your experiance and become a better person? Because if that's what you're saying I'm sure a lot of victims of PTSD would have a few choice words for you.

 

Edit: To expand a little better, would a drug that increased cancer survival rate be a bad thing? A lot of people "fight" cancer and they end up leaving alive (spontaneous remission, etc.)

 

I bet you'd say yes, a cancer-fighting drug would be good. What you don't realise is that a lot of the damage of psychological problems is PHYSCIAL as well. The mind is not always some abstract entity completely seperate from the body, and "psychological trauma" is not always completely independant and free from physical effects/damages. Don't be so closed minded and realize that maybe the experiances these people have had has impacted them in a way that is more than just mental (ie: in a way that may need more than willpower to overcome.)

First off...you are the most condescending person to enter this thread. Congratulations.

 

Second off...like I told ecnarf...I never said the drug was bad...I was arguing people can learn from any situation...perhaps you were too busy thinking of the best way to make me look like a dumbass instead of reading my posts.

 

 

The rest of your post is going on about how I think drugs that help people are bad...which I have never said so what the hell?

 

Get over yourself...this is some of the most self-righteous stuff I have ever seen.

 

Edit: And before our highly educated friend types out his next sermon...

 

...I admit to being a dumbass...but at least I respect other people's opinions.

Edited June 19, 2007 by shade

[Prometheon]

First off...you are the most condescending person to enter this thread.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Prometheon